In this conversation, Deb Dobson and I explore the complexities of social skills, its prevalence, and the impact of avoidance on mental health. We discuss common cognitive distortions associated with social anxiety, the importance of self-compassion, and practical strategies for managing anxiety in social situations. Deb emphasizes the value of small, consistent exposure to challenging situations and the need to reframe negative thoughts. Our conversation highlights the significance of recognizing one’s progress and being kind to oneself throughout the journey of overcoming social anxiety.
If you would like to learn more about Dr. Dobson’s work, you can find her book here:
Living Well with Social Anxiety: Practical Strategies for Improving Your Daily Life by Dr. Deborah Dobson
This is a transcript of my conversation with Dr. Deborah Dobson
Social Anxiety: A Widespread Challenge
Emma McAdam (00:00)
Deb, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m so excited to talk about social anxiety. I feel like it’s such a common situation that a lot of people deal with, so really grateful to have you here.
Deb Dobson (00:01)
Hehehe. Thanks, Emma. I’m really happy to be here today because this is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Social anxiety and also kind of related to social anxiety, simply old shyness. Lots and lots of people are shy. Lots of people are socially anxious. It’s a really, really common problem, you know, affecting closing in on 8 to 10 percent of the population. Yeah.
Emma McAdam (00:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Really, really? I’m not surprised. It seems to me like having a degree of anxiety around social situations is helpful. Like we should care, what other people think a little bit. We should be conscious of others and try to be concerned about maintaining good relationships with others. But at what point does it cross into being not healthy?
How Cognitive Distortions Impact Emotional Well-being
Deb Dobson (00:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. It’s a really good question, Emma, because I think that people who are socially anxious have lots and lots of empathy. You know, they’re really good at thinking about other people and what they’re thinking. They’re not so good at thinking about themselves. And so a key component of social anxiety is worry about what other people think of you.
Emma McAdam (01:19)
Yeah.
Deb Dobson (01:19)
Many people can relate to that. It would be kind of unusual if you didn’t care at all about what other people think. But it’s when it’s so much that it’s disabling, it’s not caring only, it’s thinking other people are judging. Other people are evaluating, judging in a negative way. You know, not that other people think I’m great.
But other people think I’m stupid. Other people think I’m awkward, uncomfortable. And so it’s really being focused on other people negatively judging to the extent you’re not even paying attention to other people. You’re only focusing on how am I coming across? Am I embarrassing myself? Am I behaving stupidly or awkwardly? Or do I look uncomfortable? And so it’s really being caught up in your own head.
And that can really lead to lots and lots of avoidance. social anxiety is avoidance of social situations. And it can be all social situations, or it can be quite specific. Might be only public speaking anxiety, but it could be virtually all social situations leading to
Emma McAdam (02:25)
Yeah.
Deb Dobson (02:33)
tremendous isolation.
How Avoidance Fuels the Common Distortions of Social Anxiety
Emma McAdam (02:36)
Yeah, oh that’s so interesting and I really want to come back to this avoidance thing because avoidance fuels anxiety. Like I think my audience understands like how avoidance trains your brain to be more anxious but can we step back just for a second would you say that thinking gets distorted? You mentioned that people with social anxiety they think a lot of others and not of themselves but then they often they also get stuck thinking about themselves and how they appear. What kind of common distortions do we see with this?
Deb Dobson (02:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I’ll just kind of list some of the common distortions because many of the thoughts are distorted and focused on how you feel. So I look stupid. We don’t know how we look to other people. I appear uncomfortable. I can’t think of anything to say. Other people will judge me. Other people won’t accept me. Other people will reject me. Nobody likes me.
So those are some of the common distortions. So I better just be quiet. I better stay home. I’ll never have relationships with other people.
Emma McAdam (03:42)
I remember as a kid I thought I was, and I know this term is not appropriate, but this is how I talked to myself as a teenager, I like, I’m a social retard. Like, I clearly am so awkward. I’m clearly incapable of having good friendships or things like that.
Deb Dobson (03:47)
⁓ huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think almost all adolescents and teens have those kinds of thoughts. it’s not until you really become self-aware. So anxiety kind of hits you at transition, social anxiety at transition times, like finishing high school and moving on to the next step.
Emma McAdam (04:04)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Deb Dobson (04:19)
But it’s easy to have those thoughts. I’m a social reject. Nobody likes me. Everybody hates me.
Emma McAdam (04:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess I’ll go eat worms. Have
you heard that one?
Deb Dobson (04:32)
That’s what I was going to say, but I’m
not sure if people remember that song or not. in the garden eating worms.
Emma McAdam (04:37)
Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t hear my kids singing that one anymore, so who knows? But that’s certainly when I grew up.
Yeah,
okay, so with social anxiety, people tend to assume other people are thinking terrible things about them. They tend to assume that there’s something very weird or blaringly obvious that other people are noticing. ⁓ They tend to think that everyone’s paying attention to them and pointing out what’s wrong.
Deb Dobson (04:52)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Right.
Absolutely.
Everybody’s staring at me. And so those are some of the thoughts. And, you know, we were just talking about the cycle of avoidance. So those thoughts lead to, I better not say anything. I better not go. And I, I think, why would I go to a place where everybody hates me? And so I’m just going to avoid.
Spotting Subtle Avoidance to Improve Social Skills
Emma McAdam (05:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, can you give some examples of like what avoidance looks like because there’s there’s blatant avoidance Which is like I’m not gonna go out in public. I’m not gonna do public speaking I’m not gonna speak in class, but there’s also a lot more subtle forms of avoidance, too Can you like describe some of both categories?
Deb Dobson (05:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, no. Yeah, great question, Emma. There’s all kinds of avoidance. So the easiest one is, I’m just not going to go. There’s avoidance. So avoiding why you’re actually in a social situation. So it might be sitting in the corner.
It might be not saying anything, avoiding eye contact. It might be helping out in the kitchen wanting to be useful, but you’re avoiding the chit chat or the social interaction. It might be sitting in the basement playing video games with the kids. You know, it might be avoiding eye contact. It might be going for a few minutes and leaving early. It might also be relying on someone else.
Emma McAdam (06:15)
That’s a good example.Mm-hmm.
Deb Dobson (06:29)
So relying on a confident person to do your talk. For example, going to a restaurant and having someone order for you, having someone else do the talking for you. And so there’s lots and lots of kinds of avoidance. other more subtle ones might be having a shot of alcohol before you go. kind of having a way to loosen up, taking medication before you go.
Emma McAdam (06:30)
Hmm.
Deb Dobson (06:58)
You know, that might happen before the situation. the reason that’s avoidance is it leads the person to avoid taking both the responsibility and the credit for what happens. You can say, well, I did okay because of the alcohol or because of the drugs. It wasn’t really me.
Emma McAdam (07:15)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Deb Dobson (07:22)
Know, and therapists have to be careful too because sometimes you can say, well, I couldn’t do it without my therapist. I only was able to go to this event because my therapist told me what to say or what to do. avoidance is kind of tricky and it’s sometimes hard to identify.
Shifting from Safety Behaviors to Anxiety Management
Emma McAdam (07:40)
Hmm, that’s so interesting. It makes me think I can’t, I can’t put my finger on a specific movie, but I feel like there’s these movies where the lead character is nervous or scared about something and then they’re given a magical object. Like this is your lucky stone. This is your magical object. And then they’re able to do the task, but then they attribute the ability to do the task to this magical stone. And then the climax is always like the stone gets lost or broken or something. And then they, they
Deb Dobson (07:53)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Great. Huh. Yeah.
Emma McAdam (08:07)
Come to learn that they’re able to do this on their own and they’re gonna be okay.
Deb Dobson (08:10)
Yeah, that’s a really good point because it’s really important for people to take credit for what they do and not give it away to some magical object. You know, we’re talking here about what’s called safety behaviors. And so that magical stone would be a safety behavior, like kind of like a good luck charm. You know, people use good luck charms all the time. But I’ll give you an example that occurred to one of my clients.
Emma McAdam (08:25)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Please.
Deb Dobson (08:39)
She always came to her appointment with the backpack and I never asked her what was in the backpack because she always carried the same things with her. But she was carrying I think it was called the phobia and panic workbook in her back book. And it was interesting because it seems like, well, that’s kind of a sensible thing to do. You know, I think if you’re caught out, look up what to do. But she was using that as her magic.
Emma McAdam (08:54)
Okay.
Deb Dobson (09:06)
Stone, she was thinking, well, I’m okay because I’ve got an expert along with me in my backpack and she wasn’t relying on herself to figure it out. And I think that, the goal of living well with social anxiety is to take charge of it, to take responsibility for it and trusting yourself.
Hey, I’ll be able to figure it out. And I think the key is, not just learning how to avoid things less, but not give the credit away to things like therapists or other people, like your confident friends, or things that have a certain magical quality to it.
Emma McAdam (09:46)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think my audience is familiar with this, but when we ⁓ believe or we have a thought that something’s dangerous, and then we take any kind of action to avoid that stimuli, to avoid people, whether that’s like just looking at your phone or being really busy all the time, right? This avoidance can be very subtle. Then after the social situation and we find out we survived, nothing bad happened. Our brain interprets this as meaning, ⁓
Deb Dobson (10:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma McAdam (10:15)
The only reason they didn’t reject me is because I was like looking at my phone. Or the only reason I survived this interaction is because I made sure to carry my panic and anxiety workbook in my backpack. And then our brain increases our anxiety around things. Like, so the avoidance fuels actually greater anxiety and decreased confidence in our ability to handle situations.
Deb Dobson (10:20)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yea.No, absolutely. I think that avoidance helps in the short term. You know, it helps for those few moments that we’re avoiding, but it really gets in the way in the long run. I’m glad you mentioned the phone actually, because I didn’t mention that as probably the most common way to avoid. it’s so, so common and it’s always accessible, but it really gets in the way.
Emma McAdam (10:44)
Mm-hmm.
Exposure Therapy: Building Confidence through Random Acts of Exposure
Deb Dobson (11:03)
You know, you want to take the credit and tell yourself, well, I survived and I didn’t just survive because of my phone or because of my confident friend or because of the book in my backpack. But I survived and even not just survived, but did okay because of some things that I did, you know, not just because of these little behaviors. So, you know, I’d like to talk about some of the things one can do that are easy and accessible. You know, because when people hear about Exposure therapy, you don’t think that it’s commonly used term. And you know, I’ve had lots of clients say, well, you know, on their first phone call, well, you’re not going to make me do that exposure therapy, are you? You know, it sounds kind of difficult and complicated. And so
Emma McAdam (11:51)
Ha. Yeah, yeah
Deb Dobson (11:58)
You know, I like to think about it as doing little things every day. You know, we don’t do one big thing every six months. That’s not going to help a whole lot. It’s helpful to do little things every day. And, you know, sometimes I’ve called them random acts of exposure. You know, we hear the random acts of kindness campaign that is, you know, popular and it’s good to be kind randomly, but random acts of exposure.
Emma McAdam (12:15)
Ooh. Yeah, yeah.
Deb Dobson (12:25)
Take advantage of everyday opportunities that arise. And, you know, the main thing related to that is we have to remember to look around. You know, I think if we’re anxious and focusing on how terrible we look, we’re not going to look around. We’re only going to be focusing on how am I coming across? What am I doing wrong? And so, ⁓ easy antidote to that, you know, it’s easier said than done, is to really
Emma McAdam (12:30)
Mm-hmm.
Deb Dobson (12:54)
be present and really look around you and see what’s going on in the world. Observe. I think the first step is to observe your environment and observe other people. And related to that is little things like acknowledging someone else, smiling at someone else. And sometimes people will say, well, I’ll look stupid if I smile at someone else. They’re going to think I’m a
Emma McAdam (13:09)
Yeah.Hmm.
Deb Dobson (13:23)
You know, as you said earlier, social retard, but I think that if you take the risk of smiling at someone, they might just smile back. And you want to observe, did they or didn’t they? See it as a bit of an experiment. A little bit easier than smiling might be just nodding. You know, when you go on an elevator in the morning, just nod at someone. You don’t have to smile.
Emma McAdam (13:25)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Deb Dobson (13:50)
And you could
Emma McAdam (13:50)
Yeah.
Deb Dobson (13:51)
Try eye contact. And I think that looking at them, having eye contact, and it’s interesting online, it feels like eye contact, but it’s not exactly eye contact. And so an eye contact trick that I sometimes use,
Emma McAdam (13:53)
Mmm.
Right, yeah.
Deb Dobson (14:10)
if you just look right between the eyes, right at the forehead, it looks like eye contact, but it’s not quite. So it’s a bit of a magic stone, but it looks appropriate to the other person. Because if you’re always…
Emma McAdam (14:13)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, it
Deb Dobson (14:27)
If you’re always looking down, you’ll see the sidewalk. You probably won’t trip on the rocks, but you won’t see anything else. And it feels like other people are staring at you.
Emma McAdam (14:41)
Yeah. Hmm. But so then if you look up, kind of bring your bearing up, you notice people around you and you spend a little bit of energy or focus on looking at other people, you realize they might be busy doing something else and not judging you. They might be like actually they they might be actually just happy to be there. They might be smiling. They might be dealing with their own issues. They might be upset for some other reason. But when we have our head down and we’re just in our own heads, we think, well,
Deb Dobson (14:47)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma McAdam (15:10)
I’m just such a terrible person or something like that.
Deb Dobson (15:12)
Yeah, exactly. And it just feels like all eyes are on you. But if you look up, you realize they’re not. know, exactly. You know, it’s surprising how little other people are thinking about you. sometimes, people have their own issues, they have their own thoughts, or they might have their own anxieties. You know, they might be looking at the end. So, you know, and kind of interesting experiment is to walk through
Emma McAdam (15:33)
Mm-hmm, exactly.
Anxiety Management: Strengthening Social Skills through Observation
Deb Dobson (15:39)
A place where there’s quite a few people and kind of observe. You can play little games like how many people are looking at you, how many people are wearing glasses, how many people are wearing hats, how many people look anxious, how many people don’t. And so it forces the person to really be observant.
Emma McAdam (16:00)
Yeah, I love it. And then random acts of exposure, like making yourself do a small hard thing every day, is that what mean?
Deb Dobson (16:08)
Yeah, well, I would say a small medium hard thing every day. Don’t, exactly, exactly. Yeah, so don’t go for the hard, hard things. Go for the, slightly hard or medium things. So you don’t want to, up and give a lecture to 300 people, you know, as your first step.
Emma McAdam (16:13)
Like a three, like a three or a four on your SUDs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Easy and often. Yeah, and I think, you know, there’s a lot of things I don’t do right as a parent, but I have a 10-year-old who is pretty anxious, and I consistently make her go to school or order her meal at the restaurant. It’s within her window of tolerance, you know, but it’s like…
Deb Dobson (16:33)
So easy and often. Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah, yeah.
Emma McAdam (16:58)
And make her go to an activity she feels nervous about with her church. And then afterwards, she usually has a great time. She’s like, that was actually amazing.
Deb Dobson (17:01)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Exactly. And I think those are all great because, you know, think oftentimes people in their wanting to be kind will help people avoid. And so order for a person or say, well, it’s fine not to go, you can stay at home and play video games or watch TV, but that doesn’t help in the long run. And so reducing avoidance,
Emma McAdam (17:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Deb Dobson (17:30)
Regularly, frequently, and you know to do regular everyday things is really, really helpful. I think that you know for a person, you know it’s great if she orders in the restaurant. some people may find they choke up ordering and so ordering the drink rather than the whole meal, a step above that would be making a complaint about a meal.
Asking for, the hot sauce or something that’s just slightly above, the normal level. I sometimes say to people, you know, if it’s easy, if you’re talking to the most confident person in the room, because they’re going to take steps to draw up the conversation, they’ll probably be quite socially skilled, and it’s going to be easier, but that’s a way of avoidance. And that’s going to make you feel less confident rather than more confident. So an alternative is to look around the room. You know, this could be true for your daughter, could be true for anyone. Pick up the most anxious looking person in the room and go talk to them because they will appreciate it and you’ll feel better for it and you’ll be able to practice some of the social skills. So do something that’s a little bit difficult.
Emma McAdam (18:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (18:47)
But not too difficult.
Emma McAdam (18:50)
I love that approach to exposure therapy. mean exposure therapy seems really intimidating and it’s interesting because everyone has their own things that make them comfortable and uncomfortable I actually made a video a year or two ago about exposure therapy where I went and practiced taking falls at the gym rock climbing. Like I’m a climber.
Deb Dobson (19:11)
Yeah.
Emma McAdam (19:11)
And I used to do lead climbing where you take bigger falls and then I stopped when I had kids and I got very anxious about it. So I started practicing ⁓ by taking six inch falls and then, you know, 12 inch falls and that worked. But nobody liked this video. And I think it was because for them, like the idea of rock climbing and taking falls was maybe like a 10 on their scale of distress. But for me, taking a 10 foot fall would be much more comfortable than
Deb Dobson (19:21)
Great.
Emma McAdam (19:40)
Making a complaint at a restaurant.
Deb Dobson (19:43)
You know it’s interesting, Emma, I once had a student that I was supervising and she was a climber because I’m in the Rockies as well people do these outrageously difficult things like ice climbing ⁓ or wall climbing and she gave me a gift of rock climbing lessons which I actually went to was terrifying but I once had a client who
Emma McAdam (19:51)
Yeah.Right.
Deb Dobson (20:09)
Would do these outrageously difficult things. He would be able to jump out of an airplane with a parachute on a pair of skis. Yeah, right, exactly. But he couldn’t talk to people. He couldn’t ask somebody on a date or to go for coffee. I think there’s very little relationship between fear of physical situations and
Emma McAdam (20:19)
Okay, great! Yeah! But he couldn’t talk to people? Yeah… Yeah…
Deb Dobson (20:35)
Fear of social things. People fear being vulnerable in front of other people and being judged in front of other people and sharing their emotional response with other people. And so remember again, small things, medium things, regularly, often. You know, it’s like practicing learning a new language.
With exposure therapy, it has a bit of a bad reputation, I think. But if you liken it to learning a new language, you know, we wouldn’t expect ourselves to do it over a weekend it takes time, it takes practice, it takes kind of retraining. And so give yourself a break, it’s going to take some time. And so if you focus on other people, if looking at other people eye contact is not difficult.
You know, say hello to a cashier at a grocery store. Start a conversation with someone on the bus. Someone that you’ll not meet ever again. And you can say to yourself, if they think I’m weird, so what? it doesn’t have to matter.
Emma McAdam (21:30)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s some good advice. for me, like learning to be more assertive has been slow, like learning a language. And the other day I was coaching soccer, it’s like little kid soccer. So the coaches are also the refs. And the other coach came in and was like, hey, I don’t want to do corner kicks. Like we should just start, like just keep the game moving. If the ball goes out of bounds, we just bring it back in and keep playing. And I was like,
Building Mental Health by Embracing Being "Perfectly Imperfect"
Deb Dobson (21:50)
Okay.
Emma McAdam (22:07)
Well, my purpose with these seven-year-olds is to teach them how the game works, how the game actually works. We’re learning rules. It’s not so much about scoring. It’s like, let’s learn how soccer works. And he was like, no, no, no. Yeah, he’s like, no, it just slows the game down too much. And I was like, no, we’re going to follow the rules. We’re going to use the rules. And he was like, OK, whatever. And I was like, whew, I did it. I was so proud of myself for being like, no, we’re going to do it.
Deb Dobson (22:12)
Yeah. Great. Right. Skills. Yeah. Good.
A lot of it depends on the circumstances and the situation. it can be difficult with somebody that comes across as super confident, you may know that they’re wrong.
But if it’s presented in a certain way, it’s hard to say, hey, I think you’re wrong. I don’t want to do it that way. And it can be.
Emma McAdam (22:54)
Yeah. yeah. A year ago, a year ago, I would have just gone along with it. So it’s like, it’s like, I’m like, and it was not a big deal, right? It’s fricking seven year old soccer. It’s not a big deal, but all the other coaches were doing corner kicks and like that was the rules. Like that’s what we’re doing. So anyway, I was, I was proud of myself for the slow and gradual progress I’m making at being more assertive.
Deb Dobson (23:04)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. No, exactly. For you. Exactly. Exactly.
You know, and I think you gave the example a few minutes ago about falling six inches and practicing that. You know, that’s kind of like giving yourself permission to make mistakes as well, ⁓ or to literally kind of fall. You know, I had a client once who was practicing making mistakes, you know, for example, purposely spilling a drink in a restaurant or sending something back that you don’t like or don’t want. I think it’s easy to be taken advantage of and be really harsh on yourself. So you want to give yourself credit.
Emma McAdam (23:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, and that’s like, I don’t want to spend too much time on my own stories because I’ve got some other questions I really want to ask you. But I think like as I’ve thought about my own anxiety and I looked at how I was in the past and how I’m growing as a human being, I think in the past I was very much trying to control. was trying to control and make sure I never messed up and make sure I never hurt anyone’s feelings and make sure I never looked awkward and make sure like that’s what that was my goal. And was like, if I could only be perfect enough, then
Deb Dobson (24:14)
Mm-hmm.
Emma McAdam (24:24)
Then I wouldn’t feel anxious anymore. And as I’ve matured and grown and worked, I’ve come to be more like, trust is better than control. Like I trust that even if I do make a mistake or if other people judge me or if things go wrong, I’ll still trust that like, it’ll be okay. And I had this experience a few weeks ago, in the beginning of October, I was invited out to Harvard to be on a panel and
Deb Dobson (24:40)
Mm-hmm. Hehe. Boy ….
Emma McAdam (24:54)
I, for 10 years, I’ve had four kids in 10 years, I’ve mostly just said no to all these speaking opportunities I’ve had. I don’t love public speaking. I’m on YouTube, but I get to work in my own office on my computer by myself, right? So I go out to Harvard, the topic was easy. It wasn’t even like a mental health topic. was like how to become a social media creator. I was like, cool, I know how to do that. And my main goals were like, don’t say something offensive and like, do say something helpful. And somehow…
Deb Dobson (25:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hahaha!
Emma McAdam (25:23)
I managed to say something that like definitely landed wrong. And I was in a room full of social justice warriors who made sure to let me know. And it’s not that they were wrong and I was right. It’s that I showed my naivety in public at Harvard. And what was different for me was afterwards, I felt like more embarrassed than I felt in like 10 years, right? It was a good, strong dose of embarrassment.
Deb Dobson (25:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma McAdam (25:51)
And as I worked through that, I kept saying to myself, you know what, Emma, this is just an opportunity to keep practicing and like learning and like keep showing up. I wanted to never show my face again. And I, instead I went back and I kept talking with people and we had a lot of conversations where I was like, did I, did I sound like a racist? And they’re like, no, you did not sound like racist. Like I had all these opportunities to kind of clarify like my experience. because I, handled that embarrassment.
Deb Dobson (25:57)
Hahaha! Mm-hmm.
Emma McAdam (26:20)
with more, like, I don’t know, trust that it was gonna be okay, even if I did make the mistake. I was like, okay. And like a day and a half later, I was like, it’s okay, it’s okay, instead of like a year of suffering around this.
Deb Dobson (26:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, that’s a really, really good example because, I mean, you went in giving yourself lots of instructions about what to do and what not to do. you know, the more we focus on what not to do, it’s more likely we’re going to do it. You know, there’s a Canadian novel where, you know, the main character is invited to the dinner of his fiance.
How Self-Compassion Counters the Avoidance Cycle
Emma McAdam (26:42)
Yeah. Yeah! And yeah, well, so that.
Deb Dobson (27:03)
And she gives him all kinds of directions about how to behave and what to do and what not to do. And of course, he finds himself extremely anxious because that’s all going to heighten your anxiety. And he does all the wrong things. He messes up and is so angry at himself. But a phrase that I sometimes like to use is be perfectly imperfect because perfection is not possible.
Emma McAdam (27:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (27:31)
And it creates a whole lot of anxiety and perfectionism will create avoidance because if you expect yourself to be perfect, why do it? It’s not possible. And another way to think about it too is if you see a perfectly socially skilled person, you’re the most socially skilled person that you can imagine, are they going to be likable? Are they going to be approachable?
Emma McAdam (27:58)
Mmm.
Deb Dobson (28:01)
You know, are they going to be someone that you’re going to talk to? And I think that if a person makes a few mistakes and takes responsibility for them, you know, that makes them more human. And it’s kind of good to be human, I think, in all these situations. you know, I think…
Emma McAdam (28:01)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Deb Dobson (28:21)
We worry a lot. you you talk about the social justice warriors. I like that term. you know, I’ve had that same thought too. Am I going to use the wrong word or say something that is perceived as racist? You know, I think that terminology changes quite frequently. And sometimes we get it incorrect or not up to date and we get called out on it.
Emma McAdam (28:43)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I just like, yeah, I made sure I apologized. I expressed that I have blind spots and I’m open to learning. And then we had more conversations and it was cool. And someone was like, someone was like, yeah, let’s go. Like, let’s have this conversation. So we did. And I learned about an area I hadn’t thought about before. But I think, I think you’re right. Like the most relatable, the most enjoyable people to be around.
Deb Dobson (28:52)
Okay. Exactly.That’s great. Mm-hmm. So that’s…
Emma McAdam (29:12)
Make a ton of social mistakes every hour probably.
Deb Dobson (29:15)
Exactly. Exactly. You know, they might be, they be very funny, but they sometimes tell a joke that is a little bit off color or, you know, something that
Emma McAdam (29:16)
Yeah, they’re the people we enjoy being with. Yeah, yeah. Or they interrupt someone, or they
like, yeah, they’ll interrupt, or they’ll just kind of like not really notice what someone else is thinking, you know, like, or they might, yeah, not think about another perspective, and we still like them, but we have this distortion around like ourselves.
Deb Dobson (29:34)
Exactly.
Exactly, yeah.
You know, and I’ve done lots of social anxiety groups and I’ve done an exercise that I call the fine art of interruption because socially anxious people, when you think about what do you do when you’re feeling really anxious and want to join in, you know, you sit or stand at the periphery of a group of people and you maybe have a brilliant thought and you want to say it, but you hesitate.
And the moment passes, so you wait again and you wait again. I think it’s important to be able to interrupt and learn how to do it gracefully and tactfully and sometimes not always. You know, I think that that’s okay.
like the biggest thing is to be engaged in being an observant of the world, being observed people around you and look for opportunities to interact in some way, you know, starting at things that are slightly difficult, like eye contact, smiling, starting a conversation. focus outward instead of inward.
Anxiety Management: Practical Tools for Regulating Physical Symptoms
Emma McAdam (30:42)
if someone’s experiencing social anxiety, how, or like physical signs of anxiety, maybe they’re sweating or blushing, which people with social anxiety worry about so much, how can you still manage to be social when you’re experiencing physical signs of anxiety?
Deb Dobson (30:47)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no great question because I think that physical signs of anxiety are common. certainly blushing can be quite visible depending on the situation and the lighting and coloring and so on. But it can be visible and it feels more visible than it actually is. But I think.
That blushing, trembling, like shaky hands, sweating a lot, having a really, really dry mouth so much that it’s hard to speak. So there’s lots of physical signs of anxiety and they may be present much of the time or they may just hit you off guard. Like sometimes they just happen totally out of the blue. giving a presentation that suddenly hits you. it’s okay to
Emma McAdam (31:31)
Mm-hmm.
Deb Dobson (31:37)
Take a pause. think that depending on the circumstances, if you’re doing a lecture, which most socially anxious people aren’t going to be doing, but you might just have a drink of water. You might just take a deep breath. You might think that it’s just important to pause. I think that you can, on certain circumstances, take a break. For example, if you’re having a panic attack, extreme anxiety,
You can just excuse yourself for a few moments and go to the washroom. And while you’re in the washroom, give yourself a thought such as, you know, I’m giving a break. It’s not that I look so stupid. It’s that I’m truly, you know, being empathic towards yourself. But then a couple little things you can do while you’re even in a situation sometimes do something that causes a different physical sensation.
So in the bathroom, Do 10 jumping jacks. Shake your hands vigorously. Run your hands under really, really cold water. You know, if you can’t leave the situation, say that you’re sitting around a boardroom table or in a job interview or something, know, certain things you can do under the table. You can clench your hands under the table. You can always take a breath. You can always pause, say, excuse me, could you repeat?
Emma McAdam (32:34)
Mm. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (33:02)
What you just said. Some people like to have really, really sour candy in their pocket. something that causes an alternative sensation. It’s kind of grounding and focuses you on something else.
Emma McAdam (33:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, an interesting thing about really sour candy is it makes you salivate, which is kind of the opposite of that sympathetic reaction. And that can also trigger like nervous system calming because it’s more. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (33:33)
Exactly. Yeah, and you know, another kind of easy thing you can do is you can name your emotions. I’m feeling really anxious right now. It’s kind of if you say you can say it out loud sometimes, because naming something actually causes a bit of distance. And it helps just a wee bit.
Emma McAdam (33:41)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, interesting.
I appreciate that. You know, think people might be surprised to know this about me because I’m on social media, but really my work is in a room by myself with my computer much of the time. But like sometimes when I am presenting, I get shaky, like I get quite shaky. And ⁓ I like to reframe it by saying this means I’m excited.
Deb Dobson (34:02)
Hahaha! Yeah.
Uh-huh, I like that actually. So relabeling, you know, and doing it, you’d lots of different relabels. Like I think that if you suddenly won a lottery ticket or you suddenly were told, well, in 10 minutes you’re catching a flight to Hawaii or something, you know, it might get all shaky too, but you relabel it as anticipation, as excitement. This is great rather than this is awful.
Emma McAdam (34:40)
I think the thing that I see people getting stuck on is if they’re like, my gosh, this is a catastrophe that I’m shaky or that I’m blushing. This is terrible. I can’t do this. I have to make this go away. That usually leads to more the anxiety cycle like spinning up.
Deb Dobson (34:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. For sure. If you start to label it as awful, you’ll probably leave. you know, I mentioned, you know, go to the bathroom for a few minutes to do some grounding. It’s important to go back to the situation because if you leave, it’s very, very difficult to go back next time. And so go back, even if you go back just for a short time, but you want
Emma McAdam (35:04)
Run away. Right, right.
Deb Dobson (35:22)
To make sure that the anxiety is a little bit better before you leave.
Reframing Thoughts with Self-Compassion
Emma McAdam (35:28)
Mmm, such good advice. I’m so glad you brought that up. And I think that does take us to like, what do you say to yourself in these situations? I mean, I mentioned one of the things I say to myself, like, this just means I care a lot about these people and what I’m saying. But like, what do you say?
Deb Dobson (35:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think that’s true. I think that if you didn’t care, you wouldn’t be anxious. You know, people who are socially anxious have lots of empathy and really care about other people. And so I think that’s a good relabel. I’m anxious because I care. I think it’s pretty natural to want other people to like you. But I sometimes will say to clients or people in general, you know, well,
Who are having the thought, they don’t like me. And I’ll say, well, do you like everybody you’ve ever met? And, you know, I think that would be, you know, no one’s going to say, well, I just love everybody. I think it’s okay if some people don’t like you so much. Does it have to matter? And so.
Emma McAdam (36:26)
Yeah and that takes us like that’s Albert Ellis right like Albert Ellis came up with his musts and he said you know a faulty form of thinking is to say everyone must like me and approve of me or else it’s terrible it’s a catastrophe I can’t show up I can’t be myself right
Deb Dobson (36:30)
Yeah. ⁓
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I think that not everybody’s gonna like you or me, and that’s okay. I don’t like everyone. I like most people, but there’s some people that I might not. And so, you know, that’s one thing to say to yourself. Tell yourself, too, that feelings are not facts.
Emma McAdam (36:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (37:06)
know, may, or thoughts are not facts. You know, I feel anxious doesn’t mean I look anxious. You know, feeling a certain way doesn’t mean at all that it’s obvious to people. Even if you’re blushing and trembling and sweating and have a super dry mouth, other people don’t really notice. often people are caught up in their own world and they’re looking at you. You know, that’s a bit.
Emma McAdam (37:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Deb Dobson (37:32)
Daunting to say, people aren’t thinking about me. They don’t really care so much about me, but it can be freeing as well. So thoughts are not facts. Feelings are not obvious. And it’s important to be kind to yourself. You know, if you’re trying the random acts of exposure, give yourself credit. Yeah, be kind to yourself. Be empathic towards yourself. You know, say things to yourself.
Emma McAdam (37:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Deb Dobson (37:59)
That you would say to somebody else that’s having a hard time.
Emma McAdam (38:03)
Yeah, can you give some examples of that? I think this is a great thing to finish up on like how if we’re taking the route, if we’re not doing the avoidance route and we’re doing the random tiny acts of exposure, how do you reinforce that positivity inside of yourself?
Boosting Emotional Well-being by Recognizing Your Progress
Deb Dobson (38:18)
Mm-hmm. I think that recognizing what you did, you know, I think somehow keeping track of it, you know, well, I did, you know, three random acts of exposure today and I did none last week. So recognize that you’re making progress. know, anxious people often say, well, I did that. It’s no big deal. Everybody could do it. And they all do it all the time. so recognizing, constant minimizing exactly. So recognizing if it’s tough for you,
Emma McAdam (38:22)
Mm-hmm. Constant minimizing, yeah.
Deb Dobson (38:48)
Then it’s hard and that means you’re brave. So doing random acts of exposure, you’re brave. I think if you show up, you’re brave. And so being kind, being empathic and not minimizing and trying to not catastrophize either because it’s easy after you’ve done something like let’s say you started a conversation in the supermarket and you go home and think, well, I must have looked like the stupidest geek ever.
You know, why did I do that? You know, nobody talks to people in public places anymore. And so, saying, well, I practiced and that’s great. And if somebody doesn’t like me or disapprove, I don’t care. And I don’t know, actually, because we don’t know what other people think.
Emma McAdam (39:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Right. Right.
Deb Dobson (39:36)
Or we don’t know how they see us. And then what you did as well is you also got feedback in your ⁓ example. And so you asked a few people, well, how did I come across? In certain circumstances, asking someone we trust that we can get feedback, and that’s useful. And sometimes they’ll say, you may say, well, last week at that event,
Emma McAdam (39:59)
Yeah.
Deb Dobson (40:05)
You know, I said the stupidest thing, what did you think about it? And they’ll say, well, what in the world was that they have no memory of it whatsoever?
Emma McAdam (40:11)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like for other people, it’s not that big of a deal. And I got a lot. And in that situation, I got a lot of feedback from people saying, well, Emma, actually, we knew exactly what you were trying to say. we were just taking issue with the wording or something like that, you know, with the nuance. So a lot of people gave me feedback like that, but I still like felt it intensely and called my dad and cried. And he told me a story about a time he was in China and gave a speech and something awkward happened.
Deb Dobson (40:15)
Exactly. Okay. Great. Yeah, no, I’m never been there, done that.
Emma McAdam (40:37)
He felt very ashamed too. was like, cool, I come by this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, awesome. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book and where to find it? Because this has been wonderful.
Living Well with Social Anxiety by Dr. Deborah Dobson
Deb Dobson (40:48)
Okay, well I have a copy right here. I can hold it up. Can you see it?
Living Well with Social Anxiety: Practical Strategies for Improving Your Daily Life by Dr. Deborah Dobson
Emma McAdam (40:52)
You might have to hold it in front of your face because of that background thing, or turn off background for a minute. Can you turn off the background? Hold it up right in front of your chest then. Hold it right in front of your chest. There it is. ⁓ you can’t see it there, but right in front of your chest we can. Down just a little, down a little, right there! Living Well.
Deb Dobson (40:58)
Oh, that’s too complicated, I think. Let me see. Can you see it? Okay. And so had an opportunity to write this book actually. I really liked the concept of the Living Well series that Guilford is putting out because it’s, the concept is that people with various kinds of mental health problems, including social anxiety.
You know, certainly can make great progress, can recover well with therapy. However, they often will have residual symptoms and may, during times of transition, times of stresses, may continue to have symptoms of social anxiety. And people don’t always have access to therapy either. And so I think the idea is that people, it’s important to take ownership over whatever issues you have. We were talking about that earlier. It’s important not to give away credit. You have to take both the responsibility and the ownership and the credit. And there’s lots and lots of practical strategies, kind of little things people can do every day like we’re talking about to help themselves with social anxiety. So this book, can really do everyday things in terms of social skills, in terms of their thoughts, in terms of ways to reduce avoidance, and leading to practical strategies to deal with friendships, to deal with intimate situations with partners or dating, educational and work situations just trying to be as practical and hands-on as I could to really help people struggling with social anxiety and with shyness. And it comes from, having worked with socially anxious clients for ⁓ decades actually, trying to help them figure it out because sometimes therapy can be a little bit too general or a little bit too theoretical.
And clients are left saying, well, exactly what do I do? Exactly how do I approach this? So that’s kind of in a nutshell what the book is about.
Emma McAdam (43:24)
In a nutshell, I love it. That’s great. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time and bringing your expertise to our audience. We’re so grateful to have you.
Deb Dobson (43:41)
Good. Okay, well thank you very much. My pleasure.
