In this post, you’ll learn about setting boundaries with kindness. Emma speaks with Jess Miller, a boundaries expert. Together, they will explore the nitty gritty of setting boundaries. Read on to learn more.
Emma: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, today I’m super excited that we’re going to be talking about boundaries with a boundaries expert, Jess Miller. We’re going to be talking about the nitty gritty of setting boundaries. Why do we feel anxious when we do it? Why do we feel guilty after we do it? Why do we maybe shake or cry when we do it?
What’s the difference between being mean and setting a boundary? What’s the difference between an ultimatum and setting a boundary? What do toxic boundaries look like? And how Jess shifted in her approach from being a people pleaser to healthy, gentle boundary setting, even with mother nature. She’s a licensed marriage and family therapist.
She has 12 years of clinical experience. And she’s also a creator that I love on Instagram. Her channel is called Mind Your Boundaries. She has over 90, 000 followers over there. And she gives people great advice about how to communicate their needs and their boundaries in clear and caring ways that respect both them and other people.
I’m excited to jump in. Let’s go.
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Now, no pressure, but if you’re interested in trying it out, there’s a link in the description. Okay, back to the video. Hey, well, Jess, thank you, thank you so much for being here. Really happy to talk with you today.
Jess Miller: Thank you so much for having me on.
How would you define a boundary?
Emma: Awesome, great. Well, let’s just jump right in. How would you define a boundary?
Jess Miller: I guess a boundary that works for me is like a self-imposed ruler limit that keeps me safe, balanced, and strengthens my relationships.
What are these common obstacles to setting boundaries?
Emma: Mmm, okay. That sounds so essential to a good, healthy life. So [00:02:00] why do so many of us struggle to set boundaries? What are these common obstacles to setting boundaries?
Jess Miller: I think for many years, what prevented me from setting a boundary was I didn’t know what it was.
Like I, I misunderstood it. I thought a boundary was mean. I thought it was so selfish if I set a boundary. I thought I was trying to control other people if I set boundaries. And it wasn’t until I learned that if I set a boundary, I prevented resentment from coming into my relationships. That’s when everything like clicked for me.
Have you always been good at setting boundaries?
Emma: Have you always been good at setting boundaries?
Jess Miller: No. I was terrible. I am,
Emma: Me too
Jess Miller: Recovering. I’m a recovering people pleaser. I was the worst pushover and my pattern was, I would just say yes and take on way too much. So to the point of burnout, and then I’d have to like retreat and lick my wounds and recover, cause I’d get really sick or something would happen.
And then I’d get back in the game and I would people please and take on way too much again, burnout. And that was my pattern. And my [00:03:00] biggest fear was I never wanted to disappoint anybody. Like I just, I hated disappointing people. It was a very big problem of mine. And I still am very uncomfortable with conflict.
I think we all are. Yeah. So that was a big deterrent for me. And I truly felt I would mean if I set a limit, like I felt like I should be able to handle everything.
How did you come to a place where you're now a boundaries expert?
Emma: Yeah. So how did you come to a place where you’re now a boundaries expert?
Jess Miller: I think it was honestly learning that a boundary is actually really kind.
It’s the purest act of self love, but also it’s kind to the relationship. And it’s selfish if you don’t set a boundary because If I don’t communicate to you that what you’re doing is hurting me, I’m starting to resent you and that’s breaking down our relationship. And once I realized that it was just, it was just a complete game changer for me.
How setting boundaries could ever be kind of loving?
Emma: That is so interesting. So I think there’s a super common idea that you either have to be nice, like go along with things. I’m like, okay. I think I see this, [00:04:00] especially in my community of people who are trying to be christlike, and they also interpret this as, you always need to be soft, you always need to be gentle, you should not ever speak up and say, I don’t like that, because that might hurt someone’s feelings, and if you hurt someone’s feelings, that means you’re being bad, and I know this is an experience for people across many spectrums, like not just religious folk, but how do you conceptualize this differently?
How could telling someone, like I don’t like what you’re doing and that’s going to hurt their feelings or telling someone I’m not going to do that for you, and that’s going to really inconvenience them. How could that ever be kind or loving?
Jess Miller: Well, I think just speaking on when you were saying like not making other people uncomfortable and just saying yes to everything and just being super nice.
I think that was like my biggest problem was that I wanted to make sure everyone else was always comfortable. And even just thinking back, I would let people stand too close to me. Or I would let if someone hugged me [00:05:00] and their hand like dipped a little bit below my waistline. I’d be like, oh, they didn’t mean that.
Or if they said something maybe about my appearance and it was inappropriate, like in a clinical setting, I would just be like, I don’t think that was like what they really meant. Like I would always make excuses because I wouldn’t want to make someone else uncomfortable, but I’d always make myself feel uncomfortable.
And I think part of my journey has been discovering that I matter to stand up for. And I think that’s a really big deal is like you, you’re worth standing up for, you’re worth protecting your resources, your time, your energy. You’re also worth having like physical boundaries. You matter. And so that’s been a huge part of my journey, but then also just figuring out what is worth protecting. Why am I setting these boundaries? Is it because I want to spend more quality time with my children? So I have to set a boundary, like, with a needy mom? Like, that would be a reason for me. Like, I have to also have the why. Like, why am I setting this boundary?
Set limits but also be kind
Emma: [00:06:00] I like that a lot. I’m digesting this a little bit. I think for me, I grew up kind of thinking, oh, either you’re nice or you’re mean, and that always shows up in either soft behaviors or hard behaviors. But I can think a lot of times in my life where I’ve thought I was being really nice and I was actually building resentment. So I’m sorry, I’m talking so much, but I’ll tell the story and then we can talk a little bit more about this.
So my mother in law and I have had some challenges. She’s a wonderful person. I actually respect her a lot. Yeah, I think she’s really great, but like, we just, we have corners that rub. One time she was over, we ordered Thai food and I sent my husband out to get it. I was like, really looking forward to my Massaman curry.
My husband picks it up, comes home, opens it up. And it is not what we ordered. Like it is the opposite of what we ordered. It is spicy like soup and my [00:07:00] mother in law is like, Emma, sit down, come eat this. And I’m like, no, like, I, I think I’m just going to go back. I’m just going to go back and I’m going to, I’m going to go call them and tell them they gave us the wrong order.
And she’s like, Emma, no, it’s good. Come eat it. Come eat it. Come eat it. And I just didn’t really say anything to her. And then I said to Ryan, Ryan, like maybe like you could go back and get the right order. And I just started ignoring her. And she’s like, Emma, sit down and eat this food. And I just didn’t say anything to her.
Cause I was trying to avoid conflict. I did not even want to say to her, no, I don’t want spicy soup. I want Massaman curry. But I thought that would be too much conflict.
Jess Miller: Yeah.
Emma: Cause she was like, no, just eat it. Like, and there is like this underlying thing of her kind of being like, you’re too sensitive and picky.
You should just go with stuff. And I’m like this underlying thing of like, I am sensitive and I want,
Jess Miller: And that’s okay.
Emma: Yeah. And so basically long story short, I basically just stopped responding to her while she was telling me to eat the soup. And [00:08:00] I was like, I’m just going to go get in the car and I’m going to drive off and pick up our meal.
Meanwhile, the restaurant called us and was like, actually two Ryans ordered food today. We gave you the wrong Ryan. Your food’s sitting here waiting for you. Come pick it up. So I’m like, perfect. Yeah, I’m on my way. I’m on my way. But long story short, then she, an hour later is like, “Emma, do you hate me? You won’t talk to me. Do you hate me?” And I did not hate her. But at the same time, my being passive and avoiding conflict and just being quiet and not saying anything did build resentment in the relationship. It looked so soft and it looked so gentle. But in the long run, it just built resentment in the relationship because I was withdrawing and ignoring her basically.
Jess Miller: Yeah. And then that just breaks it down. It erodes everything. It erodes trust. It erodes everything.
Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it definitely, it was not like a way that was really respecting me. Like what you were saying, like, did I have a sense of self-worth to be like, oh, I’m worth it to eat the curry that I paid for and ordered.
Yeah. Well, [00:09:00] maybe I am too picky. I don’t want conflict. And I was also, so I wasn’t treating myself good. I wasn’t treating her good.
Jess Miller: And, and it wasn’t clear
Emma: And it wasn’t clear at all. I wasn’t clear and direct in any way. I was just avoiding.
Jess Miller: And I think what is attracting people to my style of setting boundaries on Instagram, it’s that like I’ve seen other people set boundaries throughout the years and that’s why I knew like I could never do that because it’s so harsh. Like holy cow. But once I understood how boundaries would serve me, then, like, I just say it in a kinder way. And that’s the biggest feedback I get from people is that it’s so nice to be able to hear scripts on how to set a boundary, but in a kind way. So, set limits, but also be kind in the same sentence.
An example of setting a boundary
Emma: Yeah. Could you give an example? Cause that is one of the wonderful things that you do is you teach people how to set a boundary in a way that shows that you care about both people, but that you have a line. [00:10:00]
Jess Miller: Yeah. So my really good friend has an amazing relationship with her grandma and she comes over often at night just to have dinner with them, but she overstays her welcome and they have little kids and the process of getting kids in bed, like the nighttime routine.
And so every time she comes over their nighttime routine gets extended and then they have crabby kids and it’s awful.
Emma: Yeah, yeah.
Jess Miller: She was just starting to build all this dread every time her grandma would call her like, hey, can I come over? She’d just be like, oh my gosh, now our night is screwed. And I, she was like, I can’t set a boundary with her because how mean am I going to be to like tell this 80-year-old like, get out of my house.
Like we got to get out at night. And once I explained to her that you’re actually starting to resent your grandma and it’s hurting your relationship, you’ve always been close to her, she saw it in a different light. And what she said was like, so her grandma called her and she was like, hey, can I come see the boys and have a dinner?
She’s like, yes, we would love to have you over tonight for supper, grandma. We just need you to leave by seven because we need to have the boys in the bath to get them in bed on time. And she’s like, no problem. [00:11:00] And so it was just like, yes. We would love to see you, but our limit is seven and that definitely worked for her.
Emma: I love that. I love that. And I’ve noticed that about a lot of your reels that you make sure to encourage people at the beginning of setting a boundary, emphasize how important the relationship is to her.
Jess Miller: Yeah.
How do you present boundaries that are firm, but loving?
Emma: Do you have any other techniques like that? Or go into detail on that a little bit. How do you sandwich this or how do you present boundaries that are firm, but loving?
Jess Miller: Yeah, I think it is like showing so much value and acknowledgement on the front end. And then you make your request on the back end. So you just let them know, this is my limit value. You, I love you. I treasure our relationship and I need this. Uh, that’s all it is. They hopefully can respect your request.
But if they don’t, you already know, like, okay, well, I already know what I’m going to change in my behavior to hold my line. Because the boundary is always in your control the entire time. You’re not expecting other people to change their behavior, like to mind your boundary.
What if I set a boundary and the other people don't respect my boundary?
Emma: Okay, so that’s so important. Here’s the number one question people ask is, what if I set a boundary and the other people don’t respect [00:12:00] my boundary?
Jess Miller: Well, this is what I used to do a lot was I thought I was setting a boundary, but really I was making a request.
Emma: Yes, go.
Jess Miller: I was like requesting something and then the other person was like, no, thanks.
Emma: Right. Yeah.
Jess Miller: And then I would be like, you’re not respecting my boundary. You’re not changing. And I would get upset with them because I would feel like they didn’t respect me. They didn’t love me. They didn’t care about me. And then resentment would build.
Emma: Yeah.
Jess Miller: But the difference is a boundary is something that you have the ability to control. So you’re in charge of changing your behavior to mind it. But then a request is you’re asking someone else to come in on like an agreement, like yeah, this, and so then it’s on them and they can deny it or, or accept it. For example, I we recently had a daughter in law. She wrote in. And she’s like, help my mother in law.
Like she’s just driving me crazy. So she, her and her husband had told her in laws, if you guys ever move closer, once we start to have babies, you have to be at least 30 miles away. Like that was [00:13:00] their boundary.
Emma: Okay.
Jess Miller: And recently my mother in law called and said, we just found a house 15 miles away, and she was really excited. We reminded her of our boundary. We said, no. Sorry, it’s 30 miles. And then of course, the mother in law’s like, I can buy a house wherever I want and made a huge uproar in their family. And she’s what, she’s asked me, how can I enforce this boundary? And I had to tell her, like, that’s not a boundary. Like that was a request.
And she lets you know, and probably not a nice way. I’m not going to honor that request.
Technically a boundary is something you can control
Emma: Oh, I love this. This is so important. I think this is where people get really confused and frustrated with boundaries because technically a boundary is something you can control
Jess Miller: It’s only within your control.
Emma: Mm hmm And a request is something that you do with someone that you hope you have mutual influence with like, oh to maintain good feelings in our community, I request the people I don’t know, don’t [00:14:00] sneeze on the chairs, whatever it is, right? We’re going to make these requests, but a boundary would be saying, if you sneeze on the chairs, then you’re not invited back. Like that’s a boundary. Like if you own the, if you own the space or something. So with the house example, the daughter in law could control where she lived. She can control what she asks. She can control. That’s about it. Right?
Jess Miller: Yeah. I mean, she still has all the control no matter where her mother in law lands or their in laws like 30 minutes, 15 minutes, or right next door, zero minutes away, she still has full control of how they handle unannounced visits. So she still gets to have control over like, this is our boundary. No unannounced guests. You have to call before you come over. So she meets her mother in law at the threshold of the door and just like, oh, sorry, Lisa, we’re not up for guests tonight. Like maybe we could get together Thursday. That’s within her control. And just other things like that. She still has control over that. But yeah, you can’t tell somebody where they’re going to live. That was [inaudible]
Emma: Yeah. And like, if we were to assume for like, just briefly, cause everyone’s going to [00:15:00] say this. Okay. What if her mother in law is toxic? What if her mother in law is narcissistic and her mother in law is going to completely disregard her boundaries.
The boundaries she can enforce are the only boundaries she can set. So you can say, you may not come onto my property because if you do, then I will …. and then your options are, I will leave. I will call the police. I will spray you with a hose that might be considered assault. You better talk with the lawyer.
I’m not sure, but like, like you look at what’s in your control. It’s like, I will call the police. If you come to my property, that’s like, that’s an actual boundary where a request is like, please don’t come to my property. You’re like, wow, but she’s narcissistic. So she keeps coming. She doesn’t listen to me.
So she keeps coming. It’s not a boundary. If you can’t take action, right?
Jess Miller: Yes. Yes. Yep. That’s exactly right.
What's the difference between a request and a boundary?
Emma: Yeah. So, yeah. So many people, I feel like that’s the biggest confusion is like, what’s the difference between a request and a boundary?
Jess Miller: I think even talking more along the lines of people that think they have a family member that’s narcissistic or people that [inaudible] their boundaries that they don’t respect them.
I have [00:16:00] found a different formula in setting up like a sandwich for my like scripts, my boundary scripts. And I have a free guide that you can link in your description with it.
Emma: Oh yeah. Tell us the name of that. And we’re going to link that in the description cause it sounds amazing.
Jess Miller: So it is How to Set Boundaries with High Conflict and Sensitive Personalities.
And in it, I just explain why it sometimes seems impossible to set boundaries with certain family members. Either they get really big and loud and scary. And you’re just like, oh, god, I don’t really need that boundary or they get really sad and weak and meek. And then like, they scurry away and make you feel like a monster because you’ve hurt them.
And what I found is if you can somehow, cause they get really emotional, both sides, the high conflict or the sensitive, they’re super emotional. Yeah. I think back to like, when I was super emotional. And it was probably when I was 13, and if my parents wanted to set a boundary agreement with me, they had to like, get me to buy in a little bit.
And so the formula is you think of a way to buy them into the boundary. So [00:17:00] they think it’s more like an agreement, like what they’re going to get out of the boundary versus like, this is a line you can’t cross. Because sometimes you’ll see with personalities, certain strong personalities, they make it their mission to railroad it.
It’s bizarre, but it’s definitely a thing that happens.
Emma: Like almost like a power struggle. Like they feel like if someone sets a boundary, it’s threatening to them. And so they like have to show that they can like, undermine this boundary to be in charge or something.
Jess Miller: Yes. Yes. And so I just think it’s important to get them to buy in a little bit.
Like, this is why it would benefit you to work with me on this boundary.
Be creative
Emma: So let’s go back to the grandma, um, coming over for dinner example. So that grandma responded really nicely. Like, great. Sounds good. Thanks for letting me know what you needed. I appreciate that. In like an ideal world, we could make requests and we could respect our own needs and other people’s needs.
And we would all just have this thing. What if grandma had been like, okay, sounds good. Comes over. And it’s 7:15, 7:20, she’s making [00:18:00] no efforts at leaving. And what?
Jess Miller: Well, in Minnesota, we have a long goodbye and it might be a Midwest thing, but it’s a process. So my friend actually, what happened was she would start the whole process at 6:40 to say goodbye.
And I was like, okay, so standing up, like, got to get ready for bedtime. And so we’re just moving grandma to the car slowly.
Emma: Hand her the coat. Opening the door … all the mosquitoes are coming in, right?
Jess Miller: So we’re making our way. So like say goodbye and send her down the road and that worked well. But let’s say she’s not picking up on any cues.
You like stand up. You’re putting away all the food. You’ve cleaned the whole kitchen and grandma’s still just like chatting away. And it’s like 7:15. Well, then, you know, like she is not actually going to work with you on that. So how you hold that boundary of we need to start bedtime by seven.
You would have grandma come over on the weekends. So when she would call to say, “Hey, can I come over?” She could come over on MEA break. She could come over on a night that you don’t have to like really keep like a strict regimen because maybe you don’t have to work the next day, [00:19:00] but she’s not willing to work with you on the seven o’clock deadline.
Then you have her come over on a night that it doesn’t have to be so strict.
Emma: Yeah, I like that. And I like this creativity and flexibility, because I think sometimes when we feel a little nervous about a relationship, we just keep trying the same thing. Like, just keep asking, but she keeps ignoring. Just keep asking, but she keeps ignoring.
And it’s like, oh, I’m so angry. Let’s be creative here. What if you said to her like, oh, hey, grandma, we would love to have you over for dinner. But last night, last time it went too late, really interfered with like four days, because that’s what happens if kids miss like one night
Jess Miller: Yes.
Emma: And how about we meet at the cafe? And that’s a place where like you have the control to stand up and walk away or let’s go to your house. I can always stand up, pack up the car and drive off when it’s time. We have like a little bit more power. Power is maybe the wrong word, but a little bit more control in the situation.
Jess Miller: Yeah, I love that. That’s another fabulous idea.
Describe what your three steps for boundaries are?
Emma: Well, thank you. I’m so amazing.
Okay, so did you get a chance to describe what your [00:20:00] three steps for boundaries are?
Jess Miller: When I think about setting a boundary, I love steps just in anything I do in life. And I think it’s most important. It’s obvious, like the first step is identifying what your boundary is going to be. But still in this first step is also what will be my behavioral change.
Like if that person isn’t able to respect my request, like for a grandma, I need you to be gone by seven, but if she can’t, then we’ll go to the cafe instead. That would be my behavioral change. So we’re still getting together with grandma, but we’re getting together outside of our home. That would be that. Step two is communicating your boundary to the person that’s impacted by it.
So going and just like speaking, this is what I need, like, and you just communicate your boundary to them. And then step three is minding your boundary, holding the line. And that would be implementing your behavioral change, which is going to the cafe.
Emma: And if it’s not something you can implement as a behavior, it’s a request.
Jess Miller: Yep.
Emma: So it’s like, don’t talk to me that way. And it’s like, well, that’s a request, right? And then they keep talking to you and you say, don’t talk to me that way. And [00:21:00] they keep talking to you that way. And you say, don’t talk to me that way. And they keep talking to you that way. It’s like, that’s a request to request a request.
You can say, if you talk to me that way, it hurts my feelings really bad. I really care about a relationship. Please don’t talk to me that way. And you could just keep making requests. What would your behavior in step one, in a situation like that.
Jess Miller: So if I have somebody in my life that talks to me in a disrespectful way, and I’m like, it’s really like impacts me, I got to set a boundary with this. My behavioral change is going to be, I’m going to end the conversation once they get to that level. So I’m going to tell them, “Hey, so. I love our relationship. I value it. But just so you know, when you get to a place where you’re talking disrespectful to me, it’s hurting our relationship.”
So I’m going to end the conversation and we can revisit it once you calm down. And that would be my step two of communicating it. So let’s say the following week happens. We’re in a discussion. All of a sudden things go off the rails and they escalate and they’re talking disrespectfully to me. How I mind the boundary is I say, okay, I’m going to end the conversation.
We’ll circle back and talk to each other once you calm down.
Emma: That’s great. I love that. And you could use that if they’re talking to you about politics and you’re like, I don’t want to talk politics in a [00:22:00] relationship.
What if your boss keeps on contacting you outside of work hours?
Jess Miller: And there was another example I could run through with this, which was a boss contacting you outside of work hours.
So let’s say the boss keeps reaching out to me outside of work hours, like messages. Yeah. What I would do is, so step one is identify, okay, I need to set a limit around this because now I don’t get to spend any time with my family and my behavioral change would be if this is allowed, I’m going to not respond outside of work hours.
So I would go to my boss or my higher up, then I would just clarify, am I required to respond to these messages outside of work hours? And hopefully they’re going to say no, like, no, I just send it because I’m just thinking about it and I just send it. Okay, great. So step two would be to communicate with my boss.
I won’t be responding to these outside of work hours. So I’ll respond the next day or the next business day. And then let’s say I go home and that very night, my boss sends me messages outside of work hours. How I mind my boundary is I just let it be. And I don’t respond until the next day.
Emma: I [00:23:00] love it. And I think that is a tricky situation a lot of people face because of that power differential.
They feel a little threatened by their boss or their job. They feel threatened about promotions or losing their job if they set boundaries. What would you say about the reality that sometimes setting boundaries does have unwanted outcomes?
Jess Miller: Yeah. Like sometimes you will have some consequences. So that’s a great example for a job boundary.
If you set boundaries, if you go to your boss and you just say, I want to clarify my expectations and set some boundaries. You do risk being like passed over because like, maybe you’re not a workaholic and you do prioritize your family over your job. Like you might get passed over for a promotion. That would be one of the consequences.
Some of the questions where people are railroading you and pushing past your boundaries. One of the consequences would be you might lose some relationships because the takes in our life like when you finally stand up and set a limit and they can’t [00:24:00] take from you and they realize like oh like my host is actually closing up shop and I can’t just take their energy whenever I want, they might ghost you that definitely can happen
Emma: Yeah. Well, if I were to look at that job situation, I think one of the, my favorite things about what you said was like, let’s get clarity. So if you talk face to your boss and your boss says, no, you are not expected to answer questions after hours and you say, well, this impact my promotions, will this impact my stats or my bonuses?
And if the boss straight to your face is like, no, this will not impact you. You should have like, we, we at company X, Y, Z, we value a healthy work life balance. And then you’ve clarified that and they treat you that way. You’re like, great. I’m so glad we’ve had this clarifying conversation. And then let’s say they clarify that.
And then later in your third quarter review, they’re like, well, you’re not getting a raise because you’re not really showing any up and ’em. And you’re like, what do you mean? Like, you’re not answering texts after work. You said I didn’t have to like, well, actually it did matter. Then you think, well, do I enjoy working for a company that isn’t clear in their [00:25:00] expectations and they actually lie about their values and they don’t support a work life balance and you think, huh, I respect myself enough to build up my resume and to look for a job with a company that does value honesty and clarity, or you say, I respect my, you just, I think this is about clarity. Like I feel like boundaries are about clarity. So then at that point, you have three options. You say, I’m looking for a different job, or you say, I accept that I might not get as many promotions, but it’s worth it because I get to not be stressed out in the evenings.
And you wholeheartedly say, I’m going to pick up this stick. And it comes with this other end of the stick. I accept that in order to spend time with my family, I might not get as many raises. But I have a happier life or option three is you say, okay, I actually really care about the raises. I’m going to go back to answering emails at night.
And I’m going to choose to accept that stick with the other end of that comes up with it, which is extra stress or pressure on my family. And in that situation, it’s like, you have clarity about what you are and aren’t doing instead of this kind of whipple [00:26:00] waffle resentment to like, oh, I hate this, but I’m doing it anyway, but I hate this, but I’m doing it anyway.
And I’m not really sure if I have to, but I’m scared all the time. Right?
Jess Miller: Exactly. Yep. Yeah. And I think the umbrella over all the work questions, what is really getting clarity on the expectations. And like, there was a lot of stuff about company culture and the team building activities and events outside of work hours.
So happy hours and picnics and breakfast and all that stuff. It’s the same thing. Like I would go in and I would talk to my boss, what am I required to attend? And I think he would probably say not really a lot, like, or if any, it’s just team building, but I would not be trying to not be involved at all.
So let’s say there’s five happy hours a week. I would like, I would just figure out my cadence, but I wouldn’t try to cut myself out of the company culture.
Emma: Yeah, I mean in a situation like that, and maybe this is my little bits of ADHD poking through, but I would almost write down all my options and what the outcomes would be for [00:27:00] myself, like, oh, if I go to five happy hours, then this, if I go to one happy hour, then this, if I go to zero happy hours, then this, and then I would choose which stick I pick up.
Like, this is the one I’m gonna choose. Here’s what the outcomes will most likely be.
Jess Miller: Yeah, that’s so funny. So I was gonna show you, like, this is what I do with a lot of people when it’s like, work stress is I have like you put the stress bubble in the middle and then you have your offshoots and you basically write down all the things that are stressing you out and then you write down, if I could control any of this, what would it be like, what would the outcome be?
And then you actually, once you externalize it and get it out on paper, you’ll be shocked at how much control you actually have. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I definitely recommend.
Emma: I like that. I like that. And I just feel like writing things down is such an important way to organize it because these topics are complex.
Relationships are complex. Like work is complex. Like it’s tricky. It is.
Jess Miller: And it feels so scary when your income is providing for your family.
Emma: That’s right.
Jess Miller: That’s the scariest part. It’s like, okay, like [00:28:00] my livelihood is dependent upon this.
Cal Newport's book, Slow Productivity
Emma: Okay, I have to throw out a plug for Cal Newport’s book, Slow Productivity.
It is, his main idea is like as knowledge workers, the boundaries become much less clear than when we were factory workers or farmers worked seasonally. They worked on the land. So if your boss is constantly asking you to take on new projects and to do more things and to fill up your time and to do more projects, he says, you make it very clear what your priorities are and your estimate for how long those will take. And when your boss asks you to take on another task, you say to them, I’m happy to take on that other task. Which of these other priorities that you’ve given me, would you like me to put in the backlog?
Jess Miller: Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Emma: And so you just clear with your boss. Here’s what I can and can’t accomplish. You can tell me which one to prioritize, but I cannot do them all. Thank you very much.
Jess Miller: Oh, that’s beautiful. Yeah, that’s very helpful.
Emma: Okay, so I would like to ask this question. I think a lot of people feel like they have to either let [00:29:00] people walk all over them and be resentful or go no contact.
The nuclear option
Like just nuclear option. I’m never talking to you again. What do you think about that?
Jess Miller: I think there are so many things you can do in the middle. So we’re talking about estrangement, and that is on the rise right now. Like it’s rampant. The current statistic is one out of four American families will experience estrangement in their lifetimes.
And you would think that’s probably even low because not everybody is reporting it. That’s a crazy statistic.
Emma: Holy cow.
Jess Miller: Yeah. Yeah. And if you get to a place where you feel like, I don’t feel like I have any more options. Like I’ve made all these requests. I have asked you so much to respect certain boundaries, especially when you’re looking at the nuclear family.
It’s typically with like for our experience, cause we actually experienced an estrangement, it had to do with our children too and just parental decisions was just getting railroaded constantly and that was what we were just like so overwhelmed. We didn’t [00:30:00] know what to do or where to turn. This is before how to handle boundaries or what they were.
And we pulled back for a break. But our like two-week break, what we thought was just going to be like, oh, we just needed to breathe turned into a two-year estrangement, which is absolutely heart-breaking. Looking back on that period of time and just all the just destruction that it did I just see so many things we could have done if we would have just Involved a professional because at that point when you know that the communication has broken down so much in the nuclear family, you just need an outside perspective.
Emma: Yeah.
Jess Miller: And that’s one of the biggest regrets I have, but I feel like there’s so many different ways you can handle or there’s so many options you can do before you go to an estrangement.
Emma: Yeah. And so seeing a professional, what if the other person won’t go?
Jess Miller: I think, yeah. And that, that would be, you know, that is definitely like a lot of times when we’re talking about estrangement, it is more the grandparents that are reaching out to me and they’re [00:31:00] desperate and they cannot get their adult child to commit to like family counseling. So in that case, you simply have to demonstrate that you are really reflecting on what they’re saying that you’ve done to them. So you really have to do a lot of self reflection and what they’ve, what they have, the information they have given you and what they’ve told you, you have made them feel.
And if you can’t see it or acknowledge any harm that you may have done to them, then you go and talk to a professional and just say, well, this is the information I have. And I would basically keep reflecting back to my adult child. Like I’m really doing the work with all the things that you showed me that you think I’ve hurt you, accidentally, I unintentionally hurt you on, please talk to me.
Emma: I really feel strongly about that, too. It’s like if there’s two people, they both won’t like go to therapy together. If one person does their own personal work, if they learn how to be more assertive instead of passive or more assertive instead of aggressive or [00:32:00] to listen better or to empathize and to understand the other person’s perspective with the help of a professional or to just have better communication skills or to work through their own trauma.
Like that can shift the whole dynamic in the relationship. So you might think, well, I can’t fix this because the other person won’t change, it’s like, well, just work on your half, like just work on your bit. And if nothing else, you’ll be a little bit healthier. But it might shift that dynamic. So I would agree with you on that.
What is the difference between healthy boundaries and toxic attempts?
What is the difference between healthy boundaries and toxic attempts, which I would lump into maybe trying to control other people, trying to avoid anything that makes you uncomfortable or even like ultimatums.
Jess Miller: Yeah. So I think for me at first, I, when I think of a healthy boundary, it is something that again, it just, it keeps me safe, balanced.
It strengthens my relationships. When I think about an unhealthy or a toxic boundary, it would be something that is controlling, uh, use like coercive [00:33:00] control manipulation. Also, it’s impacting my health in a negative way. So a lack of boundaries, like if you need to set a boundary, but you’re not, and the behavior that you allow to keep crossing your limit is impacting your physical, mental, emotional health, I believe that’s also toxic because it’s impacting your wellbeing. The difference between, I saw that question in your comments, which is so good, the difference between an ultimatum and a boundary and why is a boundary good and why is an ultimatum bad?
I actually don’t think ultimatums are bad.
Emma: I would agree. I thought the same thing.
Jess Miller: So like, I loved her question. So when I set a boundary, I am trying to make my relationship more healthy. When I set an ultimatum, I am at my limit and it’s my last Hail Mary to try to save the relationship because I am exiting.
So it’s like I’m there and I’m exiting, but I mean, if you feel like an ultimatum is being used to control you, like everyone knows what it feels like [00:34:00] that, like, I feel like I’m being manipulated here. Well then obviously that is an unhealthy or a toxic boundary. Okay.
Emma: Yeah. Oh, that’s really interesting. You’ve made me think about this, about boundaries in an interesting way. So if we look at boundaries as something that are an attempt to make the relationship healthier, then boundaries might be something that’s like helping things go right, or they’re in smaller doses that you’re consistently assertively setting throughout the relationship or in small ways.
And then ultimatum is really the last boundary before you leave, before you cut off, before you exit.
Jess Miller: Like if we can’t constructively figure this out together, I have to exit. Yeah. Like I’m at my last line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Exactly.
What if I cry when I set a boundary?
Emma: Great. Okay. Another question I saw pretty frequently was someone said like, what if I cry when I set a boundary?
And another person said like, what if I get shaky or what if I feel guilty? Maybe that’s a second question, but what if I, when I set a boundary, I quiver a little bit.
Jess Miller: Yeah. I felt that one for sure. Cause that is me. I think for, yeah, I said, I’m very emotional. [00:35:00] So going into it, like going into setting a boundary, I rehearse it so I would rehearse and rehearse so then it just naturally flows out because I know that my body is going to betray me and show all the nerves, but at least my words are going to come out like automatically. And before I go set my boundary, I’m also going to really hone in on why am I setting this boundary.
Am I setting this boundary so I have more quality time with my kid? Am I setting this boundary so I can recharge? Cause I’m an introvert. Why am I doing this? So really making sure that is happening. And then if I did start crying, like if it was a family member or a friend, I would use it as proof that I care.
And I would say, I’m crying because I don’t want to hurt you, but I also know that I’m hurting myself if I don’t set this limit. Like, I would just weave it into the conversation. I’d be transparent. If it’s my boss, because no one wants to get emotional, like, be the crying, like, employee.
Emma: But I’ve done it! But I’ve done it!
Jess Miller: I [00:36:00] would say I’m crying because I know this is so important, but I care about my position, and I care about the way you see me and the way I’m treated here. And I’m just worried. So I’m crying because this means a lot to me. So I would just weave it into the conversation. Some in the moment, like an in the moment technique you can do to try to like calm your body is exhale as slow as possible.
Cause when we’re really worked up, we have short, shallow breaths. But when we exhale really slow, you control that heartbeat and the heartbeat, like the rates per heartbeats per minute controls whether or not it’s your frontal lobe or your emotional brain. And you want to keep that frontal lobe like lit up.
And so you want to like exhale really slowly when you’re trying to talk so that you just keep that frontal lobe engaged and your emotional brain like dark and turned off.
Emma: Love it. I would say like our culture. believes that crying is bad or shameful, but reality is, it’s not. It’s not. No, it’s [00:37:00] not. That’s just a cultural thing.
What if you feel guilty?
Jess Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the guilt part.
Emma: Well, yeah. Yeah. What if you feel guilty after you set a boundary?
Jess Miller: Yeah. And I wish I would have asked this question decades ago because what I realized is cause I felt so bad and that would be that was like the first sign of like, this obviously is wrong because it feels so wrong when I set a boundary.
And what I realized is the guilt just means I’m not a jerk. It just means that I really care. I don’t want to disappoint them. I love them. And that’s all it means. And guilt that discomfort it’s fleeting, like it will pass. And so if I just knew that so many years ago, it would have helped me out is that guilt means I’m not a jerk means I care about them.
And also it will go away. Like the discomfort will go away, it will pass, and it gets easier, like, as you set more boundaries.
Emma: I love it. So good. So good. That’s why we bring experts like you onto the channel. Tell us, tell my audience where they can find you. [00:38:00]
Jess Miller: I’m on all the platforms, Instagram, my podcast, where I go more in depth, that’s on YouTube, @MindYourBoundaries.
Emma: Mind Your Boundaries. Awesome. And you’ve got a download on when people don’t respect your boundaries or they’re insensitive. Tell me that again.
Jess Miller: Yes. So the free guide is how to set boundaries with high conflict and sensitive personality types. And that’s really where people struggle the most, is when you’re dealing with like, big personalities or people that really get injured and you still need to set limits.
Emma: I love it, so. Ah, thank you, thank you so much, Jess. Really appreciate you coming on today and all the work you put into it.
Jess Miller: Thank you for having me, this was a lot of fun.
Emma: Hey, real quick, if you found any part of this video helpful, I would really appreciate it if you give it a thumbs up or share it with someone who could benefit from it today.
Really appreciate it, thank you so much, and take care.
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