I had the amazing opportunity to interview Dr. Richard Schwartz, the creator of Internal Family Systems therapy. IFS is a therapeutic approach that emphasizes understanding the mind as composed of multiple parts. Dr. Schwartz explains how these parts can be influenced by trauma and how IFS helps individuals connect with their true Self to facilitate healing. Our discussion covers the roles of different parts, the impact of trauma, and practical applications of IFS in daily life. Schwartz also shares insights on how individuals can access their Self without a therapist. We ended up doing a brief IFS session with my inner critic, which also touched on the importance of addressing legacy burdens that may affect one’s mental health. The conversation concludes with a focus on the goals of IFS therapy and the transformative potential of this approach.
The following is the transcript of our conversation.
Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS) and Parts
Emma McAdam (00:00)
Holy cow, today I got an incredible opportunity to interview Dick Schwartz. He’s the creator of Internal Family Systems. And I just, I don’t even want to say too much because he did some IFS for me and it was really cool. So, ⁓ IFS is Internal Family Systems. It’s a therapy modality that can be really helpful with anxiety, depression, trauma. I mean, there’s studies showing it’s helpful with rheumatoid arthritis. ⁓ it’s, it’s this really powerful but at the same time easy to understand an accessible therapy approach. And I just can’t believe Dick Schwartz agreed to meet with me, but he did. Here’s the interview. It’s so good.
Emma McAdam (00:41)
All right. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for taking out some time out of your day to be here. Really appreciate it.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (00:48)
I’m excited about it, Emma. I really like what you’re trying to do and I want to contribute, so I’m glad to do it.
Emma McAdam (00:55)
I’m sure you could do a better job than I at explaining IFS in a big picture way, but simply for my audience, perhaps for people who aren’t very familiar with it.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (01:07)
Yeah, so it’s a shift in the way we understand the mind. So basic idea is that we’re all multiple personalities in a sense. Not we have that disorder, but we all have what I call parts. And that we’re born that way. It’s the nature of the mind to be multiple, to have these little inner beings talk to us all day and help us in different ways. And that we’re born with them and they’re all valuable.
They all have different resources and talents to help us in our life. But trauma and what is called attachment injuries and things like that take them out of their naturally valuable states and can freeze them in time and in the trauma and turn them into kind of extreme beliefs and emotions that we experience when we have that kind of history. So the goal is to help them out of where they’re stuck in the past helped them release what I call the burdens they got during those traumatic times, the extreme beliefs and emotions that came into you during that time, and then attached to these parts, and almost drive them like a virus to be extreme. And for a lot of these parts, the role they’re in now was needed when you were young, but they don’t know you’ve grown up. They think they still need to do what they had to do back then.
So it’s really a way of helping all these parts connect to you. And I’ll talk about that in a second. And then trust that they can shift out of these extreme roles back to who they were designed to be, which is always valuable. So that’s parts.
Once I got hip to the fact these parts weren’t what they seemed and they needed to be listened to and loved, I tried to do that. And let’s say, I’m working with you and your critic, for example,
I’m trying to get you to listen to it rather than fight with it or ignore it. And it’s going okay. You’re, you’re open to what, asking it the right questions. And then suddenly you’re furious with the critic and it reminded me of family sessions. You know, you’re a family therapist. So we’re trying to get two polarized family members to listen to each other.
Often a third member will jump in and side with one against the other and the whole thing goes south. And we learned to get that third one to step out and not interfere until the others who can hear each other. You do that and it goes better. I thought maybe the same thing was happening with this intersystem. Maybe as I’m trying to get you to listen to the critic, a part of hates the critic has jumped in.
Emma McAdam (03:21)
Hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (03:32)
and is doing the talking. So I began asking clients, could you get that one to just step back, just relax in there? And I found when I got it to step out, was like a different person would show up who not only wasn’t angry at the critic, but suddenly had out of the blue compassion for it and was purely curious about it and had confidence relative to it and was calm. And when the person would be in that place, things would go really well. The critic would relax and would share how it got stuck in this role and so on. And so I tried the same process with other clients of just getting some parts to open space and step back. And it was like the same person would pop out with those same C-word qualities in several others.
And things would go well. The person would just know how to relate in a healing way to these parts, sort of spontaneously. And I would ask you, what part of you is that? You and other people would say things like, that’s not a part like these others. That’s me, that’s myself. So I came to call that The Self, with a capital S And now, 40-some years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world.
Emma McAdam (04:19)
Hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (04:41)
We can safely say that that Self is in everybody, can’t be damaged, knows how to heal, and is just beneath the surface of these parts such that when they open space, it emerges spontaneously. That’s the big deal about IFS. so that’s the model. And then, you know, there’s a lot to say about how you get it to work, but that’s the basic idea.
Identifying and Mapping Parts
Emma McAdam (04:52)
Hmm. Well, and that’s what stood out to me as I worked through your book. And, you know, we can talk about the different parts and the protectors and managers and exiles and firefighters. ⁓ But as I came to the self and as your book guided me to experience the self, I felt something that was as real as real. Like it felt very much like a real core part of me and it was quick and easy for me to grasp like this healing power that was there and it was always there and it was an inherent part of me and it changed me, like it changed me.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (05:45)
Yeah, yeah, that’s fantastic. I’m so glad to hear that.
Emma McAdam (05:48)
And I imagine you see that every day. I mean, I imagine that people doing this work see this every day.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (05:54)
Pretty much, it’s been a kick. Yeah, it’s great.
Emma McAdam (05:57)
That’s really cool. It’s really, really cool. Okay, so let’s go back to parts for a second. One of the things you said stood out to me, was like, trauma can force our parts into rigid roles. And maybe we should step back before we say that. Maybe you could describe, like, how could someone notice one of their parts? What would they… How would you describe a part? Or just give a couple examples of parts first.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (06:20)
Well, to do that, I can go into the map you just mentioned. So because I come from family therapy and I’m a systems thinker, I encountered this inner world of parts. I didn’t know from parts initially, just, clients started talking that way and I got intrigued and started to help them explore it. And I wanted to create a map of what I was learning. And so.
Emma McAdam (06:24)
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (06:43)
I was looking for distinctions among the roles they were in. And the biggest distinction that leaped out immediately back then was between parts that before they were hurt, you might call these lovely inner children who, ⁓ they give us all kinds of playfulness and liveliness and creativity and joy and they want connection. But.
Emma McAdam (07:08)
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (07:09)
They’re also the most sensitive parts of us. So they’re the ones who get hurt the most or terrified the most or take in the most shame. And when that happens, they’re not so much fun to be around because now they carry those burdens and they have the power to overwhelm us with those feelings and they’re frozen in those scenes where they got those burdens.
And so we have an impulse to lock them away inside and put them in inner basements or abysses. And no.
Emma McAdam (07:36)
Is that usually a conscious process? do like, I would, yeah, okay. Yeah, I feel like I didn’t realize I had done that.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (07:44)
And sometimes it is sometimes, you know, and sometimes people around you say, just move on. Don’t think about it. Just let it go. And you, you’re trying to let go of the memories and the emotions, but in doing that, you’re locking away these precious parts of you simply because they got hurt. And you don’t realize that you don’t know you’re doing that to yourself. And in process of doing that.
Emma McAdam (08:04)
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (08:05)
you’re cut off from all this joy and all this playfulness and all this creativity. Because, it’s just not accessible anymore. So those we call exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate and the world seems more dangerous because so many things could trigger them. And if they get triggered, it’s like these flames of raw emotion just explode out of your gut and threaten to take you out.
Emma McAdam (08:14)
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (08:29)
make it so you can’t function. So other parts to deal with that are forced to become protectors and some of them protect you by managing your life so that nothing happens that will ever trigger your exiles.
Emma McAdam (08:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (08:42)
So maybe you have a part that monitors how close you let people get and won’t let anybody get close enough again to hurt you, or maybe wants to make you look perfect so that you never get rejected again, or makes you achieve a lot to counter the worthlessness. we all have these manager protectors. Other systems call them the ego or the defenses.
Women have this part that takes care of everybody, won’t let them take care of themselves. You know, there’s a whole variety. And lot of these managers become those inner critics because to try and get you to behave, they have to yell at you and they’ll use your mother’s voice or your father’s voice to try and get you to behave. So those that we call manager protectors, despite their best efforts, we still get triggered by the world.
Emma McAdam (09:06)
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (09:27)
So when an exile gets triggered and there’s this huge rush of emotion, another part goes into action immediately to try and deal with that emergency and will do it in an impulsive way or a reactive way and will either get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance
Emma McAdam (09:37)
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (09:45)
or distract you until they burn themselves out. And so all these firefighter protectors, and in contrast to the managers who are careful and controlling and want to please everybody, these firefighters piss off everybody and take you out of control and don’t care about the collateral damage to your body or your relationships. They just know they’ve got to get you away from these emotions. that’s the map. It’s held up really well over these 40 years. And so as I was describing that, you can think about some of your parts and how they fit into those roles.
Middle School Impact on Parts
Emma McAdam (10:21)
Yeah, well that’s what I was kind of actively doing. From your book, for the YouTube channel I made kind of a summary of the book and then I made a summary of your mapping your parts exercise and I shared that with my audience. and after reading your book, I asked my parents to send me some pictures of myself when I was like eight to 10 years old.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (10:34)
Nice, nice. That’s great. That’s great.
Emma McAdam (10:42)
because I thought about this kid I was and I was such a weird kid which at like when I was like eight, nine, ten, I thought it was great to be so weird and different. Like I was kind of a tomboy. I was like into fishing. I was like in seventh grade or sixth grade. was in the fly-tying club in middle school. Like I was like the only girl in the fly-tying club. Well, one other friend who was a girl and really weird but I was like fun and exciting.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (10:46)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.
Emma McAdam (11:10)
And then middle school comes around and it’s like, it’s no longer okay to be weird, to look different. I had short hair. Sometimes people called me a boy. and to do all these weird things, like I was into like art and design and like, engineering. I would do all sorts of wood carving, like all sorts of random stuff. And then middle school comes around and my one other friend who, was in the fly time club, she goes the direction of like, I’m gonna go like try to look nice for boys and I’m gonna chase boys and I’m gonna look, all pretty and I’m not really gonna be friends with you anymore. You’re kind of weird, whatever. And then as I looked at myself at that moment in my life, I really went to sports and academia. that was the year, eighth grade was the year where I like had to get a 4.0. Like I had to get a 4.0.
Manager and Firefighter Parts
Dick Schwartz, PhD (11:59)
So in my language, that manager kicked in and made sure you performed at this huge high level.
Emma McAdam (12:06)
Yeah, yeah, so like if I wasn’t very good socially or I felt kind of weird or excluded, I made up for that fear and hurt of rejection by being like, I have to be perfect at school then. I just have to be perfect at school. And so that would be an example of like a manager protector, right? And then that type A personality just came in strong.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (12:23)
That’s right. Okay, clear. What?
Emma McAdam (12:33)
But then sometimes, like, so if I look at myself, maybe you can help me with this a little bit, I look at myself and it’s like, in so many areas of my life, I’m like, very controlled. So I don’t use substances. Like, are there firefighters who are like, intellectualizers? Or like, avoiders? Like, just avoiders? Like, I just avoid situations that I might not be good at?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (12:54)
Go ahead. Yeah, totally. Totally. are firefighters that are dissociative. Yeah, there’s a lot of different kinds of ways to distract you or get you away from the feelings.
Emma McAdam (13:04)
Because, like, you could look at me, I mostly write. Like, that’s what I do. I write a video, I spend a week writing a video, and then I film a video. Like, I love it. It’s my favorite thing to do is, like, to sit and, analyze information and condense information and try and make it applicable and, condense it into a nice video. But, it does feel a little bit like this is my escape, you know? And it’s very functional escape, like…
Dick Schwartz, PhD (13:30)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Emma McAdam (13:33)
It brings me success, whatever.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (13:34)
are firefighters, yeah, I’ve got that. mean, that firefighter, he drove me to bring the model to the world. So, yeah.
Emma McAdam (13:39)
I mean, so, so, and again, like, like it sounds corny, but like that part’s not bad.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (13:49)
No parts are bad. No bad parts, right? Yeah. And, and even the ones, like the firefighters that bring us good things are still straining. they’re still in over their heads. these are mostly kind of little kids inside.
Emma McAdam (13:50)
Yeah. Right, no bad parts.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (14:07)
So even though they’re very helpful, it’s helpful to let them know they don’t have to do it as much and they can trust you to lead. They don’t have to take over.
Emma McAdam (14:17)
Hmm. So, where I see this come out is like it’s harder for me to just like relax and play with my kids. Like it’s easier for me to just work all the time. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (14:24)
Yeah. Same here. And that used to be the case. I’ve done a lot of work on it, but that’s right.
Therapy Session Exploring Emma’s IFS Parts
Emma McAdam (14:32)
So, okay, you don’t need to do therapy. Maybe you could give a suggestion towards like, you mentioned like telling that firefighter like, you don’t have to do that all the time.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (14:43)
You know, let’s do a little piece of work, and we don’t have to do a whole session, but let’s do a little work with that. Okay.
Emma McAdam (14:47)
Yeah. Sure. Also, just so you know, I, this is not an apology, but I cry really easily. Like my tear ducts are hardwired to my emotions. So I’ll cry like a three or four and it doesn’t mean I’m in distress, you know? So great. Great. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (15:03)
I don’t worry about it. I’m good with that. Yeah. All right. So you ready? So maybe focus on that part that works so hard to create this, what you’ve created and never wants to rest and find it in your body or around your body.
Emma McAdam (15:20)
Okay, it’s probably… I mean, the first sensations that come to mind are in my shoulders and in my back. You know, being kind of tight, locked up, tense.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (15:27)
Great. Yeah. So stay focused there. And as you notice it, how do you feel toward it?
Emma McAdam (15:32)
Okay. I wish it would just loosen up. I wish it just was looser.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (15:39)
Makes sense. Yeah, let you play with your kids, but ask the part who wishes that to give us the space to help it.
Emma McAdam (15:42)
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (15:49)
So we just want to get to know it and maybe help it and not without any judgment. So see if you can just get curious about it.
Emma McAdam (15:56)
Okay. Yeah, so. Okay. And I’m not really sure how this works, like should I be narrating to you out loud what I’m what I’m thinking or just doing it inside? Okay. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (16:11)
Either way, it’s really up to you.
Emma McAdam (16:16)
Okay, so I can notice like the tight part of me. This is the part of me that gets stuff done, very productive. But then the other part of me is like, you should chill out. Like you shouldn’t be so busy all the time. And that part of me is like trying to be helpful, but it’s also adding pressure. Like it’s trying to make me chill out by pressuring me, which…
Dick Schwartz, PhD (16:40)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Emma McAdam (16:43)
doesn’t really help. Like could, I could then go study 500 new ways to chill out and turn that into like another form of like being tight about chilling out.
Therapy Session: Compassion and Understanding for Internal Family Systems Parts
Dick Schwartz, PhD (16:48)
Right. Yeah. So that’s, that’s what we call a polarization between a manager and a firefighter, but ask, ask the one who’s wanting you to chill out, to just relax back in there and give us a chance to just work with this achieving part a little bit, let you get curious about it.
Emma McAdam (16:58)
Okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (17:12)
So how do you feel toward that one now? doer part whatever forget what you call it
Emma McAdam (17:17)
Yeah. And I don’t know if I have a name for it. And we could call it we could call it uptight for right now.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (17:24)
Yeah, okay. How do you feel?
Emma McAdam (17:27)
Well, I mean, part of me is like, yeah, good job. Like you are so worthwhile. You’re so freaking productive in like just a few hours a day. Like good job.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (17:33)
Yeah. Yeah, so it’s got this little ally inside. So let’s get that one to step out too.
Emma McAdam (17:43)
Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. All right, ally, you can go ahead and step out. Okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (17:53)
Now how do you feel toward it?
Emma McAdam (17:58)
I feel a little bit sad.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (18:01)
You feel its sadness or you feel sad for it.
Emma McAdam (18:04)
Ooh, I feel a little bit sad for it.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (18:06)
So let it know that you have some compassion for how hard it has to work and see how it reacts to your compassion.
Emma McAdam (18:11)
Yeah. Okay, it initially got defensive about that compassion. Like, I don’t need your pity. Like, I’m fine. I’m fine.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (18:24)
Okay. No, even though it’s reacting that way, keep showing it compassion.
Emma McAdam (18:32)
Okay. Yeah, underneath that it just melted and it wanted to curl up and cry.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (18:40)
Yeah, so just be with it while it shows you what’s really happening with it. Yeah, it’s an overstressed little kid. So just let it know you get that.
Emma McAdam (18:52)
Okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (18:57)
Yeah, and just ask if there’s something that wants you to know about itself. And wait for the answer. Don’t think. Whatever comes from your shoulders.
Emma McAdam (19:05)
Okay. Yeah, what I feel is it being like it’s been so heavy. It’s been so hard. I’ve been doing this for so long. I’m like kind of tired. Yeah, tired. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (19:28)
Yeah, it’s tired, right? Oh, sure. So how do you feel toward it as you hear that?
Emma McAdam (19:38)
There’s a part of me that just jumped back in and said like, you should get over that. Like you just need to push through. Like I felt like I felt a defense or like a something come up.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (19:44)
Yeah. Be firm with that part. It needs to really let you be compassionate and listen.
Emma McAdam (19:55)
Okay. So tell that part like, hey, I hear you, like the part that’s like, get over it, that part, I can be like, okay, it’s cool. We can listen to you in a minute. But right now I want to listen to my uptight part and I want to just be with it. Okay. Okay. So I’m like, force pushing that one gently away. Okay. All right. So then.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (20:01)
Yeah. That’s right. That’s perfect. Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. Good. Just let it out. We care how tired it is.
Emma McAdam (20:25)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Therapy Session: Unloading Legacy Burdens
Dick Schwartz, PhD (20:28)
And Emma, ask it what it’s afraid would happen if it stopped doing this or slowed down, just ask what it’s afraid would happen.
Emma McAdam (20:38)
Yeah, it is afraid the whole household would fall apart. Like, all the things I’m running with the kids and the business and the finances that we’d run out of money. That.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (20:58)
So it holds a huge amount of responsibility. Let it know you get that.
Emma McAdam (21:03)
Yeah, okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (21:09)
That’s too much for a little part.
Emma McAdam (21:15)
Yeah. Okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (21:17)
Ask it this kind of odd question. Ask it how old it thinks you are. Just wait for the answer, don’t think.
Emma McAdam (21:30)
I just caught this memory of me in ninth grade when my mom took me to the shoe store to get running shoes and the running shoes I wanted were too expensive. And so I felt like I needed to like worry about, there’s seven kids in my family, you know? Like I felt like I had to worry about not having like desires for a certain type of running shoe because maybe our family like it puts too much stress on the family like I had to take that back on me.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (22:14)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. So how do you feel toward that ninth grade kid?
Emma McAdam (22:25)
Yeah, I feel like tender. Like that was… Yeah, that was… That was like, scary, scary for you. Like that was, that was scary and just felt like pressure all the time.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (22:35)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, how is she reacting to your tenderness?
Emma McAdam (22:46)
She’s like, yeah. She’s like, yeah, that was scary.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (22:57)
Tell me what you’re going to say.
Emma McAdam (23:02)
Yeah, I can also feel like this, can also feel this part of me that’s like really safe and courageous. like, together we got this now.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (23:16)
Yeah, let her know. Let her know that you’re not that young anymore, that things are different now, and that you can take care her. She doesn’t have to take care of you or the family anymore.
Emma McAdam (23:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (23:34)
and just see how she reacts.
Emma McAdam (23:46)
I’m noticing in my chest like feeling safer and more soft. I’m noticing like remembering how, like I was worried about my mom and I was worried about her anxiety. And modern Emma is like, ⁓ like when my mom gets anxious or worried, I actually can handle that pretty well now.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (24:09)
Yeah, good. Let her know.
Emma McAdam (24:11)
Yeah, like, okay, all right, we can handle it.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (24:13)
And ask her if she does still carry the mother’s energy, the mother’s anxiety.
Emma McAdam (24:19)
Hmm, the uptight one?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (24:21)
No, well, both of them. I’m talking about, am the the ninth grader.
Emma McAdam (24:23)
Yeah, Do I still carry the mother’s anxiety? Like am I still trying to rescue her or protect her?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (24:32)
I’ll just ask that question, wait for the answer. Ask if either of them still carry her energy.
Emma McAdam (24:42)
Definitely the uptight one still does. Like, fills that need, yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (24:51)
Ask if it likes having to carry that or might be interested in unloading it.
Emma McAdam (24:57)
man, I would love to unload it. I would love to unload it. the first thing that comes to mind is this like, this long line of tense Mahoney females. Like my mom and my grandma and my aunts I just feel this like, we women have to carry everything.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (25:07)
Well, that’s what we call a legacy burden that came in your lineage. And it would be good for you to not pass it on to your kids.
Emma McAdam (25:25)
my gosh, I would be so grateful if I could. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (25:28)
So let’s see if we can unload it.
Emma McAdam (25:31)
Mm.
Therapy Session: Body Awareness and Emotional Release
Dick Schwartz, PhD (25:34)
We’ll go back to the uptight one and ask where it carries all that in its body or on its body.
Emma McAdam (25:46)
And I’m noticing like a bit of shakiness throughout my body. I’m noticing my legs kind of clench and then soften. Noticing my stomach. Like my stomach’s tight and hurts.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (26:00)
So I’m gonna encourage you to let your body do what it wants to do now. Just let it happen. Yeah, that’s great. Just let that happen as much as it wants. Great. Yeah, just go for it.
Emma McAdam (26:04)
Okay. Okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (26:18)
whatever noise wants to come too.
Emma McAdam (26:26)
I thought that shaking would last a long time and it went quite quickly.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (26:30)
Okay, good. So ask the uptight one now if it gave up the mother energy or if it still needs to do that.
Emma McAdam (26:48)
In this moment, it’s feeling light. Like it’s feeling lighter.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (26:52)
Yeah. Good.
Emma McAdam (26:56)
There’s another part of me that’s like, it’s not gonna be that fast. Yeah. Yeah. It felt so good to like shake and then like not try to make the shaking stop. Like, cause there was a part of it that like, calm down, calm down. You need to be calm for this interview. And I was like, okay, I’ll just go. Like, let’s go. Let my legs jiggle, whatever, you know? And then it just, it was like, okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (27:00)
Yeah, you know, it might need more, but this was a big deal. So just. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Not a bit. Yeah.
Emma McAdam (27:25)
And it’s actually, I do have like a like a little tense jolt that has come in like twice, but it’s like much, much less. And I’m like, okay, I’ll just let it be there. It’s okay. Yeah.
Therapy Session: The Playful Side of the Uptight Part
Dick Schwartz, PhD (27:34)
Good, good, good. All right, so ask the former uptight one what it would like to do now inside of you.
Emma McAdam (27:50)
Oh, see this is where I get a little tricky because the uptight one is like, let’s make a five point plan to play with the kids more.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (28:00)
What’s tricky about that?
Emma McAdam (28:03)
Well I can’t tell if that’s being more of like a- it’s slipping back into this controlling, managing, fixing mode or if it’s like- like there’s also the genuine playful bit of me that has- I just- I feel like I’ve lost that playful bit of me so I can’t tell if it’s like trying to be controlling again about being playful or if it’s actually being playful.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (28:09)
Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. So ask it. Just ask her.
Emma McAdam (28:28)
I think it really does just wanna play.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (28:30)
Yeah, it wants to play. So let it know you’re gonna keep working with it so it can be freed up that way.
Emma McAdam (28:32)
Yeah.
So like this uptight part of me… Okay, let me ask this. Are you saying this uptight part of me might be really playful instead of being fighting with the playful person?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (28:51)
Yes,
Emma McAdam (28:56)
Ha, okay, that’s great, because it’s a very strong character in my life, so how would that be if this really powerful part of me was also really fun? Huh.
Therapy Session: Trusting the Inner Self and Parts
Dick Schwartz, PhD (29:06)
Yeah, yeah, that’s where we’re at. That’s where you’re headed.
Emma McAdam (29:11)
I love that idea. That gives me like, that’s exciting. Like that’s really exciting. Yeah, I like that.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (29:13)
Yeah, yeah, it’s okay, and so we can stop in a minute, but let both of these parts, the former uptight one who wants to play, and then that ninth grader, let them know that you’re gonna follow up, that now that you’ve found them, you’re gonna keep working with them. And before we stop, bring in the one who was so polarized with the uptight one to see the shift.
Emma McAdam (29:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (29:50)
and see how it reacts.
Emma McAdam (29:51)
Hmm. She is like, oh, I can trust you more.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (30:00)
That’s right.
Emma McAdam (30:01)
Yeah, like I can trust I don’t have to fix you. Like I can trust you that you’re okay, that you’re good.
Connecting to the Self Without a Therapist
Dick Schwartz, PhD (30:07)
That’s great. Yeah, that was a lot in about 20 minutes.
Emma McAdam (30:09)
Yeah, that’s pretty cool. That was really cool though. Holy cow. this is what my experience- that’s thank you, first off. Thank you. That was beautiful.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (30:21)
You’re welcome. You’re welcome. What beautiful.
Emma McAdam (30:24)
And if I could just, I don’t know how to put this into words without like what I love about IFS is you don’t talk about it, you just experience it.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (30:32)
Yeah. There’s no explaining. There’s no describing or teaching. Yeah, you’re just doing it.
Emma McAdam (30:41)
And as I read through your book, No Bad Parts, like the information, you know, processed in my cognitive bits and whatever, and I was like intellectualizing about it, but when I did the exercises, something in me shifted each time.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (30:54)
Yeah.
Emma McAdam (30:56)
I really appreciate you letting my audience and me experience just a little bit of like what that’s like.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (31:01)
Yeah, well, I really appreciate your going for it. And, we could have talked for an hour, but I think it’s much better to do that.
Emma McAdam (31:08)
I think so too. if I could ask one more thing it would be, how could my audience, let’s just imagine for a minute, they don’t have access to a therapist. I mean, ideally they’re doing this with a therapist, but it’s hard to access. How could they get more in touch with the Self? Like I felt it while I was doing it, partly because I…
Dick Schwartz, PhD (31:18)
Yeah.
Emma McAdam (31:31)
I’ve done some of the exercises from the book and I also have like a deep religious experience and a background with mindfulness. How can we help people connect with their SELF
Dick Schwartz, PhD (31:43)
Well, many people can do it as fluidly as you did. They don’t have your background. But the simple act of noticing a part, focusing on it, getting curious about it, acesses SELF right? Just doing that much because you’re separating. Most of us are blended with these parts all the time.
Emma McAdam (31:47)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Can you describe that just a little bit more like in a practical way?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (32:09)
Yeah, so I had you focus on the little uptight guy and just the act of noticing it in your shoulders. Then there’s a you who’s noticing it. You’re not blended with it. You know what I mean?
Emma McAdam (32:20)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and this is like, I want to come back that. I just have to say like, I loved acceptance and commitment therapy when I learned it. But what it did is like, let’s talk about cognitive diffusion. Let’s practice mindfulness and this and that and the other as a way to develop our noticing skills. And it’s so, it’s so powerful, but it was an incredibly clunky modality to teach where what you just did where you like, notice it, notice it in your body.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (32:44)
Yeah.
Emma McAdam (32:50)
maybe describe it or listen to what it’s saying.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (32:53)
Yeah, get curious about it. So the only tricky part in what we did was when I first had you notice it, then I asked this question, how do you feel toward it? And you heard from that manager who wants it to change. And that’s not going to work. If you stay with, if you stay blended with that manager, this one’s going to be defensive and we’ll just hear from the polarization. So.
Emma McAdam (32:54)
get curious about it, yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (33:17)
The only tricky part was getting that manager to give us a space to get curious. And then getting the one who loves it also to give us a space.
Emma McAdam (33:22)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, so that was that was creating space so that we could really work with the uptight part
Dick Schwartz, PhD (33:33)
Yeah. Yeah. And you might remember that as you opened, as these two parts separated, suddenly you had compassion for that part out of the blue.
Emma McAdam (33:42)
Yeah, yeah, it was there. It was there. I didn’t have to I didn’t have to try to feel compassion.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (33:44)
No, you didn’t have to try this. There’s no trying about this work. It’s all those qualities, those C-word qualities are right in your gut, in your center. And we’re just releasing them. And so out of the blue, you had compassion for it. You let it know that it said, I’m tough. I don’t need that.
Emma McAdam (33:50)
Right?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (34:04)
I just had you stay compassionate with it for a while and then it melted. And then it revealed what was really going on with it. And so it’s a very simple process really. But in terms of your question, how do people access self, it’s simply getting these parts to open space. And you do that by focusing on them rather than be blended with them.
Emma McAdam (34:25)
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (34:25)
Which is in a sense mindfulness, but it’s mindfulness plus becoming an active inner leader.
Emma McAdam (34:31)
felt like when I practiced it and the exercises in your book, like it just felt incredibly natural and it was like mindfulness feels like I’m doing a workout. Like it’s so hard for me to do mindfulness and we could say I have ADHD or whatever but this felt like it came because it was I don’t know how to describe it but IFS just feels like it’s it’s using bri-
Dick Schwartz, PhD (34:42)
Thank you. Bye.
Emma McAdam (34:55)
The intellectual side of it is like, it must just use brain circuits that we use. Storytelling circuits, people circuits, like we naturally have these like relational and storytelling circuits instead of these intellectual circuits which just feel like more removed, like…
Dick Schwartz, PhD (35:08)
Yeah, well, a lot of it in getting the cognitive, the thinking parts to step out too. So that you’re not trying to figure it out all the time. Yeah.
Being Blended with Stuck IFS Parts
Emma McAdam (35:13)
Yeah. I want you to assume for a minute my audience doesn’t know what being blended with a part feels like and maybe give three examples, just throw out a couple examples of when people are blended with their parts.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (35:31)
So just to go with your system, much of the time you’ve been blended with that uptight part. And it doesn’t let you… You’re constantly thinking about the next video or what am I going to do now? it just, yeah, you don’t even see your kids a lot of the time.
Emma McAdam (35:36)
Yeah. So I think that way, I act that way. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I just wish I could be working all the time and then when I’m with my kids I’m like planning the next cool thing I’m gonna do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (35:50)
Huh? Right, right. So that’s totally blended with that part. And it’s afraid if it doesn’t do that, the world’s going to crumble. You know, we heard that. Everything’s going to fall apart. You’re going to be penniless. And that’s really characteristic of a lot of these parts that run our lives. They’re stuck back in times where they got really scared, and they’re still living back there.
Emma McAdam (35:58)
Yeah, okay.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (36:15)
They don’t realize how much you’ve done, how safe your life is now. That’s being blended.
Emma McAdam (36:21)
If someone was blended with a firefighter, like maybe a substance using firefighter, would blended being like, man, if I’m sad, I gotta go smoke some weed. And that’s just what they do all the time. Or if someone was blended with an angry firefighter, they might just constantly be like, my boss is such a jerk. Everyone’s so inconsiderate. Every driver is terrible.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (36:30)
Absolutely. That’s right. Totally.
Emma McAdam (36:45)
And that’s just how they see the world. Like, they’re just like, the world is threatening and dangerous and awful and-
Dick Schwartz on Legacy Burdens
Dick Schwartz, PhD (36:50)
Totally. Exactly right. And the other big thing we just did, which it’s amazing how much we did in that short time, but we unloaded a legacy burden. These legacy burdens also are really big organizers of our lives. And that anxiety that came down through your generations also fueled that uptight part.
Emma McAdam (36:52)
Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I don’t quite trust myself that I’ve fully unloaded this burden. As I continue to do the work, what would that look like?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (37:23)
Well, the nice thing about IFS is you just keep asking, is that mother energy back? Did you really let it go or is it still there? And they’ll tell you. It’s not like you got to figure that out.
Emma McAdam (37:34)
ask my body or like scan and be like, is the mother energy back? And then
Dick Schwartz, PhD (37:38)
Yeah, not even just go back to that particular place, your shoulders and see how that part’s doing. And this is your homework. Do that on a daily basis for a couple of months. See how the parts doing now. is there an impulse to get back in that role or is it really chill and wanting to play? And does it still carry any of mother energy? And they’ll tell you.
Emma McAdam (37:44)
Mm-hmm. And then they say, yes, I am still carrying the energy. And then I relate to it with myself. is that the step?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (38:08)
Yeah, and then you reassure it that it really doesn’t have to carry that and see if it wants to let it go again.
Daily Practice with Internal Family Systems
Dick Schwartz, PhD
So this IFS isn’t just a psychotherapy, it’s kind of life practice, something that you can do on your own every day. I do it every day, yeah.
Emma McAdam (38:21)
What does that look like on a practical level for you? Like what would I see if I was in your house watching you do it?
Dick Schwartz, PhD (38:28)
Well, you can see me sitting there quietly, inside, like I wake up in the morning, I check in with my parts. How’s everybody doing? I go kind of go over the agenda for the day and anybody going to get triggered by anything. you know, I let them know they don’t have to take over. They can trust me. And, and then as I go through the day.
Emma McAdam (38:32)
You
Dick Schwartz, PhD (38:55)
You know, like coming to this interview, there are still some parts that get a little nervous and I’m just reassuring them, just trust me, I can handle this, just let me stay. And through the interview, it didn’t happen because I was in self the whole time, but if some part came in, I would just reassure it, just let me stay. Afterwards, how was that? Anybody need attention? It’s sort of like that.
Emma McAdam (39:18)
Do you find that is effortful work? Like does that feel like it takes energy, labor? Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (39:25)
No, I mean, in early days when a lot of my parts were very extreme still, it was challenging because I was blended a lot and they didn’t trust it was safe to separate and let me handle things. So it did feel like work early on.
Emma McAdam (39:29)
Mm-hmm.
Four Goals with Internal Family Systems Therapy
Dick Schwartz, PhD (39:40)
But there are four goals of IFS One, the first one we did some of, which is to help all these parts out of the extreme roles they’re in so they can be who they’re designed to be. and so we did some of that with the former uptight guy. And then second goal is for them all to come to trust you as the leader.
Emma McAdam (39:40)
Hold it. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (40:00)
they don’t have to do it. Like this part had all the responsibility for keeping you going and not having the world collapse and didn’t know you, doesn’t know from you. Cause it took over when you were in ninth grade and it’s been running things ever since. And so helping all the parts see there is this grownup in there who can run my life and can take care of us. There’s a big, big relief to all of them. And then. ⁓
The third goal is to help them all get to know each other and stop being so polarized and start to harmonize. So when I brought in the original part that was embattled with the uptight part and it saw there was a change, now they’re less polarized, now you won’t have that battle inside. The fourth goal is to become more self-led in the outside world.
So you relate to people in your life and your kids from Self rather than from this impatient part that wants to get back to work.
Emma McAdam (40:52)
That’s so cool and I love this chance to kind of show instead of just tell. So thank you so, so much.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (40:57)
Yeah, really, really grateful to you for taking the risk.
Emma McAdam (41:02)
Yeah, happy to do it. I’m grateful and humbled to do the work. Grateful and humbled to do the work.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (41:04)
Now, yeah, and
Emma McAdam (41:07)
Thank you so much. I just could not be more grateful for your time and I’m sure you’re very busy, but so grateful for the opportunity that I had to work with you today a little bit and that you gave me to work on myself. So thank you so much.
Dick Schwartz, PhD (41:12)
you.
